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Head-scratcher - '21 HD Sportster S

GTM®

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GT di Razza Pura
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So I'm a bit at a loss here... seems the two-wheel moto industry is destined to self-destruct. Why does a any rider need a $15k, 500 lb, 121 hp machine with a 3.1 gallon fuel tank? It's already been stated that HD has been criticized for too little too late, and now people are screaming they finally did this, and getting criticized for it as well. I'm lost on the new direction, including their 150hp Pan America. First embarrassment was the India-made HD 500 & 750s, now this. Have to say, same with Indian sadly.

I've stated before, and as much as I hate typing this, there's huge merit to having a tiered licensing system where newer riders are forced to ride machines that develops skills, and won't try to kill them starting on day one.

Guzzi has (purposefully) chosen not to make any significant power with the small block series, even up to the new V7-850, yet they remain to be a solid seller from young to old, and they say it's the only motor their keeping. I got the V7 III to 61.5 rwhp @820cc, and the V85TT to 80 rwhp and both are a hoot to ride. Everyone that owns them seems to love them. Perhaps Guzzi got it it right. We shall see what they unveil in September. A 1000cc 100hp small and light bike would be a winner for them I would wager... even if it has to be (UGH) water-cooled.

I know I'm making serious power numbers with my GTM builds, but they're for seasoned Guzzi-passionate riders, being that I'm one too; A slightly bitter professional who enjoys analog power, living in a place where I can freely enjoy it. Anyone with significant seat time under them (say 500k+ miles as a minimum,) probably agrees that 90 rwhp is about all anyone needs, and 100+ is simply a riot. 120+ is what the top race-bikes had when I was younger, without all of the digital help. The new liter bikes are simply idiotic. I've lost a lot of solid rider/racer friends on them over the years, and I hate hearing when anyone I know gets one.

So this post is just seeing what people here think of this new direction for manufacturers... What say you?

Their newer target market for a 120+ hp machine? I love seeing women ride, but I wouldn't wish this on anyone I know.
21 HD SportsterS

Flat hard seat, forward controls, limited travel (2.1" for the rear!?), fat tires that do nothing but look (trendy & stupidly) “cool”... and that swingarm is just heinous. No thanks...
21 HD SportsterS 2

21 HD SportsterS 1
 
Completely agree with you Todd. I only have about 50K KM under my belt, but I picked the V7 III so that I could have fun and not get into trouble. What's the point in a stupid fast and powerful motorcycle unless your doing track days. With my V7 III I can push it and myself hard, and know that I can still control it and not get into trouble so fast I cannot recover. Been tires up once, and that is enough in this lifetime.
 
What's the point in a stupid fast and powerful motorcycle unless your doing track days.
There is none. Even if you've earned that right; You still can't race a 1000cc bike as a new racer in sanctioned events, and when I started, anything above a 600cc I4/750 V-Twin, as 750cc I4/1000cc V-Twin was the Superbike class. Now it’s 200+ hp 1000cc 4’s & 1299cc V-Twins.
Modern liter-bikes still kill a lot of people annually, both on track and most often on the street. I blame the dealers for putting people on these machines in the name of profit, rather than keeping a customer alive and looking down the road for multiple unit sales. Good on Aprilia for the new 660 @90 rwhp, for those who want a fairing... they seem to be selling well. Maybe a small handful recognize the insanity of liter bikes.
I've been on the ground more times than I can count, and thankfully I'm still here to (at the moment barely able to) walk and talk about it. I was taught and shown the merits of riding a slow bike fast I guess. ;)
 
'overpriced and underpowered' has been the criticism of HD for many years now, so I suppose they felt they had no choice but to chase performance. well, that and approval from ever stricter pollution regulation bodies.

I owned a succession of sport bikes between the ages of 17 and 30, culminating in a Hayabusa, and came to the same conclusion - anything over 80-90 hp is not just 'unnecessary', but actually harms the experience.

my buddy owns a VFR800, and when asked how much power it has, he answers 'it has infinite power, because I never use all of it'. I always think that's a pretty good answer, and is how I feel about my B11 too. if it made another 50hp I just wouldn't use another 1/8th of the throttle.

120hp, especially on a bike with that parachute seating position... useless for actually riding. but then most motorcycles are purchased for reasons sort of tangentially related to riding anyway.

anyways, I'm rambling, but tldr: yes, I agree.
 
'overpriced and underpowered' has been the criticism of HD for many years now, so I suppose they felt they had no choice but to chase performance. well, that and approval from ever stricter pollution regulation bodies.
Sure, but why not a "small" 90 hp version to start, right? Most of the Euro Moto companies have it down on how to launch new product with power and options... much like the automotive industry. A little more of everything every year, and upgrade power and trim options.

I owned a succession of sport bikes between the ages of 17 and 30, culminating in a Hayabusa, and came to the same conclusion - anything over 80-90 hp is not just 'unnecessary', but actually harms the experience.
I obviously agree, thanks for your thoughts!

my buddy owns a VFR800, and when asked how much power it has, he answers 'it has infinite power, because I never use all of it'. I always think that's a pretty good answer, and is how I feel about my B11 too. if it made another 50hp I just wouldn't use another 1/8th of the throttle.
The VFR800, prior to VTEC (IMO) was very very good. Servicing is a nightmare.
You should ride a 125 lb less (than your Breva) GTM with your engine @90 rwhp, with much lower cg. It's about as close to nirvana as you'd ever want. ;)

120hp, especially on a bike with that parachute seating position... useless for actually riding. but then most motorcycles are purchased for reasons sort of tangentially related to riding anyway.
Fair statement for most of the younger crowds these days, though locally (and here on this Forum) are plenty that commute and seriously ride (cross country often) here... those are the ones I hope to hear from on this thread, along with all others too.

Thanks for posting.
 
Sure, but why not a small 90 hp version to start? Most of the Euro companies have it down on how to launch new product with power and options... much like the automotive industry. A little more of everything every year, and levels of power and trim levels.
...

You should ride a 125 lb less (than your Breva) GTM with your engine @90 rwhp, with much lower cg. It's about as close to nirvana as you'd ever want. ;)

Yea, hopefully a 750cc version - advantageous for insurance/tax reasons in some parts of the world - will be coming for more rational folks. The 1250 debut just to make a marketing splash.

Also yea, a GTM B11 pretty much haunts my dreams.
 
Yea, hopefully a 750cc version - advantageous for insurance/tax reasons in some parts of the world - will be coming for more rational folks. The 1250 debut just to make a marketing splash.
But still seems backwards. Sell the best you'll make out of the gate, instead of marketing to the masses who would buy them if the price was right. You may remember the U.S. marketing ploy in the late '80s of the $3995 883 Sportster deal, where they gave you exactly $3995 back in trade on any larger model within one year. That alone kept them alive and worked like a proverbial charm.

Also yea, a GTM B11 pretty much haunts my dreams.
:happy: :nod:
 
The Harley is like the V-MAX Yamaha that came out in 1985 - with 145 HP and the cool at the time dual intake runners ...
Like Dodge with the HellCat and Demon - the Engineers and Marketing guys talk the Board of directors it to letting them go Crazy !

So they can have some Claim to fame - no one stopped to think if it was practical !

And you ( Todd) scoffed any my interest in a V35 :D - Ok maybe it is WAY at the low end of the scale, but with the right gearing and making the right noise one could imagine your going fast :party:

We used to have graduated licensing here but they dropped it a few years back - Now it's graduated plate/Tag costs..
 
The Harley is like the V-MAX Yamaha that came out in 1985 - with 145 HP and the cool at the time dual intake runners ... Like Dodge with the HellCat and Demon - the Engineers and Marketing guys talk the Board of directors it to letting them go Crazy ! So they can have some Claim to fame - no one stopped to think if it was practical !
I spent most every Saturday in a Yamaha dealership most of the early to late 80s, as the dealer was a dirt-track racing supporter, and the owner's son a National number holder, and it was also just a cool old-school shop to hang out around. My Dad's life-long school friends worked there only on Saturdays too, assembling new bikes. The mechanics were young-ish and cool, as was the world-class race shop/room where I was schooled by one of the best tuner/builders on the East Coast. Literally and figuratively. Salty insults, with zero care about feelings was how it worked there. Top to bottom.
When the V-Max came out, I remember two things about it... 1. My first ride at 15 years old, with the owner of the dealership telling me the only way I could ride it, is if I promised not to go full throttle below third gear (I listened but short shifted immediately to third and pinned it, going sideways instantly in every gear above too), and 2. The conversations he had where he made everyone call their insurance company before he started any paperwork, because the annual cost was usually as much or more than the bike when it first released. Fun memories. All said, this Sporty S model is nothing like that IMO. It's stupid marketing. Yamaha had the gamut on the floor, even then... and the Venture from which the motor was pulled from, had been around for a few years by then.

And you ( Todd) scoffed any my interest in a V35 :D - Ok maybe it is WAY at the low end of the scale, but with the right gearing and making the right noise one could imagine your going fast :party:
Did I? Most adults (not all I realize) would find a V50 tiny, though the power still fun in the right surroundings.

We used to have graduated licensing here but they dropped it a few years back - Now it's graduated plate/Tag costs..
Can you tell me more or direct me to something that would outline it? How do you feel it works?
 
I spent most every Saturday in a Yamaha dealership most of the early to late 80s, as the dealer was a dirt-track racing supporter, and the owner's son a National number holder, and it was also just a cool old-school shop to hang out around. My Dad's life-long school friends worked there only on Saturdays too, assembling new bikes. The mechanics were young-ish and cool, as was the world-class race shop/room where I was schooled by one of the best tuner/builders on the East Coast. Literally and figuratively. Salty insults, with zero care about feelings was how it worked there. Top to bottom.
When the V-Max came out, I remember two things about it... 1. My first ride at 15 years old, with the owner of the dealership telling me the only way I could ride it, is if I promised not to go full throttle below third gear (I listened but short shifted immediately to third and pinned it, going sideways instantly in every gear above too), and 2. The conversations he had where he made everyone call their insurance company before he started any paperwork, because the annual cost was usually as much or more than the bike when it first released. Fun memories. All said, this Sporty S model is nothing like that IMO. It's stupid marketing. Yamaha had the gamut on the floor, even then... and the Venture from which the motor was pulled from, had been around for a few years by then.

Did I? Most adults (not all I realize) would find a V50 tiny, though the power still fun in the right surroundings.

At 6'3" it probably would be VERY Small :( Instead of making Sport Bikes for PORG'S ( Persons of Restricted Growth ) They should focus on bikes for a bit taller crowd !

Can you tell me more or direct me to something that would outline it? How do you feel it works?

I thought the graduated license ( my Son had to ride with a licensed Rider to get his license ) was a good way to approach introducing someone to Riding.

They dropped the Ride with a friend requirement - but its Still graduated.
New Rules :
https://saaq.gouv.qc.ca/en/newsroom/article/new-motorcycle-licensing-rules-coming-into-effect/
License Class :
https://saaq.gouv.qc.ca/en/drivers-...ycle-6a-6b-6c-6e/motorcycle-classes-6a-6b-6c/
Tag Costs :
https://saaq.gouv.qc.ca/en/saaq/rat...ration/cost-registration-renewal/motorcycles/
 
They probably let an intern design the exhaust, knowing that it would most likely be replaced before it ever left the showroom.

__Jason
 
The Quebec license class is totally dependent on what size bike you take your test on. I only got my street license 7 years ago (been riding "off road" since I was 11). When I did my test my instructor supplied a 600cc bike to get the top 6A license.
I had to ride with a friend for a year. If your friend happens to be a yahoo death wish rider it does nothing to make you a safer or better rider. I read that the number one infraction for new riders in Quebec was riding without a friend. I'm glad they came to their senses and changed the rules.
 
I was taught and shown the merits of riding a slow bike fast I guess. ;)

EXACTLY! I take great pride in riding very quickly on my 400cc single cylinder Piaggio MP3 scooter.

Its double-wheeled fully articulated front-end, is so stable that I can literally push the front end well past the point where a standard single-wheeled motorcycle would low side every time. I tell the local Ricky Racer crowd that they better know what they are doing if they intend to chase my scooter through the twisties! They laugh at the old fat guy on the scooter but they aren’t laughing anymore when they try to draft me and their front ends are breaking loose! :D

These pics aren’t me but several MP3 owners I know, myself included, ride like bats out of hell on these damn things because they are just THAT FUN!

Todd is right in that there is nothing like riding a slow bike, FAST!

Besides, there is no face on Earth as pleasing to my eye as the Ricky Racer sport-bike poser or Harley Road Pig, who just got their paint sucked off being passed by a scooter!

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is there such a thing as a Harley with stock exhaust?

I figure they must come with quick-release fasteners to save time during the pdi

All Harley Davidson motorcycles utilize Harley’s patented “Wallet-draining Tap System”.

It’s the only stock part of a Harley that functions exactly like it was designed to do! :D
 
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