Newer Small Block for 2015?

[Kev M]

OK, I'm at my desktop finally - MCN got 444# for the racer.

As for your Jackal you must have just carved off crap and thrown it away because my records are showing it was a claimed 542 dry/stock and more like 572 wet.

Other wet weights in my spec chart for comparison include the Black Eagle at 589# and Breva 1100 562#, so even 524# might be optimistic for a Bellagio, but is could be right (or close) as I have a dry of 494# for it (but no wet).

 

[Instg8r]

My 450 figure is from memory but it's not far off.

As for the Bellagio, it looks like a big block with smaller displacement. Single side swingarm is a plus for me. From the photo I'd guess that it still has the nose mounted alternator rather than a higher capacity unit mounted between the jugs. I fear that by the time a similar bike hits the market it would be up around the 575-600 pound level and then one may as well spring for the NTX. If Guzzi would just punch the SB out to 800cc, give it a 6 speed tranny, and offer a serious suspension upgrade...that would be a killer bike.

Thanks for the weight info... and the Bellagio's big block 935cc (1200 crank and 850 pistons) weighs in at 524 lbs ready to ride according to bikez.com. It was the most interesting blend of old/new that I think will ever come out of Mandello. Literally the front end (frame too) of the California, and the back half (including the trans and CARC assy) of a Griso. I think it would be a HUGE winner based on those who have ridden/owned them. Unfortunately that it's been deleted for good from the line up for 2014 (though it NEVER landed here in N.A.).

I like the specs on the Bellagio, but I think the hp specs could be better, but torque is nice. A 850 (877 cc) is rated at 71hp @ 7600 rpm and 48 ft lbs @7000 rpm

the Bellagio 935cc is rated at 75hp@ 7200rpm and 57 ft lbs @ 6700 rpm according to motorcyclespecs.co.za

it has a decent bump in torque and power is being achieved at a lower rpm. I wonder how much is left on the table for hp and rpm. yes I know its a guzzi bla bla torque bla bla low rpm bla bla real world bla bla....I like it all...torque, HP, and rpm...lol

 

[Instg8r]

oh one thing I'd like on the new small block is the ability to use a power commander

 

[Moto Fugazzi]

An 8V 850 small block would be ideal. A V8 8V, if you will. Might be a good platform for a new LeMans.
Ken

 

[roadscum]

oh one thing I'd like on the new small block is the ability to use a power commander

I'd like to see a design with proper fueling/engine management so that there is no need for a PC or any other tuning tricks! :mrgreen:

Paul

 

[Kev M]

Defining "need" is the question.

I've kept most bikes I've owned stock with regards to the state of tune.

Currently two of the four are, and I'd argue a third might as well be (with just slightly modified mufflers and 02 manipulators).

Anyway, most of my stock bikes have run just fine. Only one actually "needed" tuning.

 

[roadscum]

Aaaaah, there's the rub, what is the meaning of "needed tuning"? :lol:

Paul

 

[GTM®]

I'd like to see a design with proper fueling/engine management so that there is no need for a PC or any other tuning tricks!

Paul, every manufacturer is forced to deal with emission requirements that make this more and more impossible each year. While they get better at engineering around it, it will only get worse. So while you will likely be able to ride/run the bike as it arrives on the showroom floor, you will only be able to thoroughly enjoy it once the fueling has been sorted.

 

[Kev M]

Aaaaah, there's the rub, what is the meaning of "needed tuning"? :lol:

Paul

It was literally "needed" because it would not run under load without pinging.

Octane, maintenance, etc. made no difference.

 

[roadscum]

Aaaaah, there's the rub, what is the meaning of "needed tuning"? :lol:

Paul

It was literally "needed" because it would not run under load without pinging.

Octane, maintenance, etc. made no difference.

That may be how you define "needed" but others may have a different threshold. Just say'n.

Paul

 

[Kev M]

Aaaaah, there's the rub, what is the meaning of "needed tuning"? :lol:

Paul

It was literally "needed" because it would not run under load without pinging.

Octane, maintenance, etc. made no difference.

That may be how you define "needed" but others may have a different threshold. Just say'n.

Paul

Oh lord, it's just the English language, it's not that difficult. :roll:

No, that's NEEDED because without it there would be damage.

What you refer to is WANT.

 

[GTM®]

This thread is straying off topic, but that said (and to verify for Kev), MOST of the new bikes are far too aggressively timed IMO, and based on the garbage fuel we have compared to Europe, it amplifies the problem. Guzzi doesn't offer a N.A. spec map (nor anything beyond the map they build in Italy), so either octane booster or just revising the fuel/timing maps are the best solution, for all models based on my data.

 

[Kev M]

This thread is straying off topic, but that said (and to verify for Kev), MOST of the new bikes are far too aggressively timed IMO, and based on the garbage fuel we have compared to Europe, it amplifies the problem. Guzzi doesn't offer a N.A. spec map (nor anything beyond the map they build in Italy), so either octane booster or just revising the fuel/timing maps are the best solution, for all models based on my data.

FWIW the bike in question, my B11, eventually wouldn't run without pinging even with non-ethanol fuel, or even with premium PLUS a bottle of octane booster.

You're the only one who was able to solve that "NEED" for my B11, so you can (if you care to) feel free to shed light on what the biggest change you made to eliminate the pinging.

That said, it was nothing like the many other stock mapped EFI bikes I've owned.

Nothing like the RK, Sporty, Jackal, R1100, 696, V7 etc.

None of them suffered anything similar.

So there was a failing in that case of design by Guzzi.

 

[GTM®]

my B11, eventually wouldn't run without pinging even with non-ethanol fuel, or even with premium PLUS a bottle of octane booster. You're the only one who was able to solve that "NEED" for my B11, so you can (if you care to) feel free to shed light on what the biggest change you made to eliminate the pinging.
That said, it was nothing like the many other stock mapped EFI bikes I've owned.
Nothing like the RK, Sporty, Jackal, R1100, 696, V7 etc.

Thanks Kev, I didn't remember you tried Octane Booster in your B11. Your Jackal (and likely most of the others you list outside of perhaps the 696/R1100), were in a much milder state of tune, power output wise. All of the '06+ motors, in order to up the performance #'s and to meet lower emissions, Guzzi tried everything, and perhaps in Europe is is fair. Here in N.A., it's quite horrific.

I'll be posting more info on the new small block as I have it.

 

[Corn Oil Kid]

I never have had a pinging issue with my Breva. Yes, on very hot day it will ping under heavy load at lower RPM, but nothing to get alarmed about, I just make sure that when I'm poring on the coals that I run it up into the fun zone before shifting.

I did put Todd's o2 optimizer on, and that did make lower rpms less abrupt, but I have to say I have not found the issues of extreme heat and pinging, that Kev had.

I'm confident enough to say that it is not just my subjective perspective, but rather my Breva just doesn't behave the way Kev's did. That makes me wonder if they did something different at the factory, or if it comes down to subtle differences in state of tune? I know Kev jumped through a few hoops to try to get his Breva to ping less and run cooler, but with only limited success.

 

[Kev M]

I think mine was a fluke. Pete Roper thought it might be a defective ECU.

I do think, from hearing about other's B11's that it was at least uncommon.

And as such, the "exception that proves the rule". I.E that it shouldn't be "necessary" to reflash, even if desirable.

That said, it still runs pretty warm in warm ambient temps. But that's nature of the beast largely from tank design, made worse by lowered seat.

 

[Instg8r]

Do we figure there wont be any news on the newer small block until fall?

Matt

 

[jevincent]

If there is a new small block for 15, when would It hit North American shores?

Joe

 

[Corn Oil Kid]

I don't imagine we will here much prior to the intro at the Milan show in Nov.

Lucky for us the days of waiting a year to get last years bikes are over. Seems Piaggio gets that NA needs to get bikes around the same time as the rest of the world. I would expect we will get them sometime in 15.

 

[dennis2]

I would keep the retro look but I would like ABS and enough alternator output to handle heated gear, maybe 150 watts extra. A little more power wouldn't hurt..... B)