GT V7 Map Comparo

[GTM®]

On another Guzzi Forum, our friend @Bob Ponticelli compared my map to one of the cheaper shareware/Diag versions, and favored it over mine. I post this challenge, as I always consider maps based on opinion of feel can be misleading and often detrimental to the motor... I highly recommend paying for dyno graphs of 10%, 20% & 40% throttle pulls with air/fuel readings in which the said map was developed. This is something I do for each map I develop, and also to note that world fuels are VERY different, so that needs to be taken into consideration. Additionally I'll again add, I am getting yet more ECUs in which map flashes via Diag likely have corrupted the ECU leaving them dead.
NOTE: For those who have purchased my work, do not hesitate to reach out if your bike doesn't run very well. Every bike is different, so as miles rack up, and tuning may go amiss, map corrections are needed. This is why I strongly recommend the adaptive system below for the models they are available for. Unfortunately this leaves the '13+ V7 & V9s out.
If I have to continue to battle non-documented proof of opinions, I will just step away from offering this service. It is very costly to bring to market. If it leads to this, I will only offer it for those bikes which I either have personally modified or those that will also only use a Power Commander with AutoTune.

 

[andyb]

Hi Todd,
It is over a week sice you wrote this and no response from anyone, which I find surprising.
The whole ECU reflash issue seems to be quite complex and the discussion on the WG forum has had around 150 posts - all about the V7 motor. I have certainly learnt from it, although I have my own point of view based on my experiences with my own bike.

What I would like to see are dyno runs with standard and modified ECUs, including A/f ratios and HP / Torque against rpm. I don't know whether you have this available or not?

The impression I get is that many (but not all) bikes seem to have a low / mid rpm problem. No one seems to complain about how the bikes run at high rpm. Some are happy with how their bikes run as standard but a lot of people want something to make their motors run 'sweeter'. Why is this? What does your ECU reflash actually do to improve things? Why is the standard map bad?

AndyB

 

[PP-1753]

Allow me to jump in feet first - as always!

The standard map as distributed from the factory, is designed to comply with the standards of the day. This may be Euro 3, Euro 4 or even Euro 5. And there will be more in time.

Unfortunately, the factory maps are rich all over, especially at the top end of the rev range (presumably so you can't rev/ride that fast - kinda like your own personal police person). At the bottom end, there is the thing called a Lamda sensor which adjusts fuelling in closed loop (up to around 40% throttle) to ensure it is lean enough to get through the relevant standard it was built to. And it is way too lean to work properly in most cases, and hence the low to mid range issues people experience.

I understand the factory tells Magneti Marelli the parameters they want and MM spend about a day in total to develop the map that is compliant. All good you say? Well no.

As Todd has said, world fuels are way different. So the resultant performance of your Moto Guzzi is totally dependent of the map you have and the fuel you use and the conditions you ride in (humidity, elevation, temperature et al). Not an easy equation to solve with a one size fits all approach. Hence the desire to create a better fuelling system for you Moto Guzzi - to turn it into the bike the factory SHOULD have shipped in the first place.

There are a multitude of different ways to modify your fuelling, some work some don't. Add ons like Finebau Forge or FatDuc, simply richen up the whole map so it runs better around town, which further compromises top end running. It's an out and out fudge.

There are also map modification tools which allow a custom map to be created, and some have fuel trimming on the fly (PC with AutoTune) as sold by Todd. The different tools, and the authors intention, varies tremendously. Some get more horsepower/torque, which is their wont. Others get the best possible performance from the same engine by optimising A/F throughout the rev range, with no increase in horsepower but a flat torque line (note not a curve).

Comparing apples to kiwifruit is pointless - they ARE DIFFERENT! Different people want different things from their tools - whether or not it is the same tool.

If you want more horsepower, go that route.
If you want better running from a stock engine, go that route.
If you want something different again, go that route.
Perhaps you are after more frugal running, yes you could do that.
Maybe you want to turn petrol(gas) into noise as is the wont of many Harley riders, yes you could do that.

At the end of the day comparing A/F ratios, dyno graphs, and absolute numbers is rather pointless, given the way these maps are created/developed and the author's intentions. Maximum horsepower (and big numbers) at 8 grand probably does not equate to a street machine that is used to cruise around on weekends (not saying anyone does this), so it is all subjective as to what an individual want/likes in his/her machine. i know plenty of people who are not interested in doing anything - they just want to ride what they have, bog standard. We are all different...

Who is right and who is wrong? Well no-one is right or wrong, it depends, and this is ALWAYS subjective. What was it your map author was trying to achieve? Ah, there you have it - different strokes for different blokes.

 

[GTM®]

Hi Todd, It is over a week sice you wrote this and no response from anyone, which I find surprising.

Hi Andy, I don't. I find it most interesting that the named person who started the thread hasn't commented yet. I also find it most interesting that you also ask for what I did, to no avail from anyone else. I've shown my results where applicable, especially on the big bore V7 2V & 4V work I've been doing.

Fueling has become a tiring 15+ year old (childish) argument for those who think they know best, most often by those just choosing to state their opinions online, with no facts to back it. I've been dyno fuel-correcting Guzzis that long, and other makes for over 25+ years. I've also raced two-thirds of my nearly 50 years on earth, living in carbs and later injection. Additionally I was trained by a $100+ million company whose specialty is fueling and dynos. Shortly after I finished the training and was immensely enjoying my Guzzi Jackal, I wrote this; https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/resources/power-commanders-black-box-magic.205/
In the time since then, I have also exposed devices and people who tinker and sell their work, showing where said work was often downright scary to anyone who truly knows air/fuel and internal combustion. Interestingly those people always tend to try and verbally abuse me and my work based on opinion, instead of just showing proof of their work.
I often get no credit for the work I do, and more often get thrown under the proverbial bus, always on other websites. Case in point is the post I speak of. The ignorance on that other Forum is stupendous. "Bullies hiding behind keyboards..." -- words of others here, not mine.

I just utilize the tools, technology and knowledge I've been afforded. I didn't invent it, I just use it. It is not easy, and more often misleading if you build a map by just riding the bike with A/F data. It is best dealt with on a load-cell dyno. Dynojet's Power Commander and AutoTune is an amazing tool in the right hands, and (most often) downright abysmal in all others. There are many posts online where people post a problem they are having, but never follow up after I make it right for them.

Saying that using or showing air/fuel ratios and graphs to highlight information is pointless, scoffs at the very foundation of the internal combustion engine. Manipulating that ratio is what makes an engine perform well, offer the least vibration and in the case of an "air-cooled" motor, keep the engine temps down as they are largely fuel cooled. As a pilot (Andy), you must grasp this.

Tony above isn't stating that he's worked with the other guy to build a map for his 1200 Sport 2V, that he is happy with. He tells me it was built with air/fuel data, and took a tremendous amount of hours, and a speeding ticket or two. He has captured a snapshot in time, whereas his state of tune, miles and many other factors all come together. Static maps will need revisions as things change.

This is a miniscule brand, one that I really like and have heavily invested in to help those who also enjoy them. As stated above, if I keep getting (unfoundedly) blind-sided based purely on opinion, I will just walk away and find something else better to do with my time. As the saying goes... you get what you pay for.

 

[Bob Ponticelli]

Hi Todd/All,

Not sure I threw anyone under the bus on another Website but will jot a few notes below.

The GT map I got from you was a marked improvement over stock. I mentioned that on WG. I also contacted you regarding initial start-up stumbling. You suggested I disconnect the o2 sensor which I did not do. No reason other than I didn't have the time and thought that might be better controlled within the map. Honestly, the stumbling was slightly worse than stock but the rest of the bike ran so well and after a few minutes I had no issues so didn't give it another thought. Had minor pop on decel but minor.

I read on WG that a new map via GuzziDiag had been developed. I chatted with the guy and he gave it to me and said I was free to try it and if I intended to use it he would appreciate if I bought it.

As I mentioned, I think your map had more throttle response but stumbled, I feel his map in my bike ran smoother. I also have no pop now. So although I am not sure this is the case but my bike feels slightly slower but smoother (maybe feels that way because it is smoother?) and yours felt more responsive but stumbled a bit when first started and a little less smooth. I also mentioned either were better than stock.

I believe I didn't flame anyone but gave an honest assessment of how my bike ran on 2 different maps and also noted I didn't fuss too much with either trying to perfect it. Mentioned, which is correct, that you and the other individual are very good to work and chat with..........

 

[jpv7]

Todd, for what it's worth, I did post on the other site that my bike (V7ii) continues to run great with the GT map.

 

[GTM®]

Bob, the bus reference wasn't at you, but there are many others that simply resent me. That said, instead of following up with me, you chose to post a review on the other site. Basing your review purely on opinion and feel is hugely problematic and detrimental on so many levels. Also posting a review on another Forum without allowing me to correct the map for your bike is also, well, just lame.
All I'll add is that I highly recommend that you visit a air/fuel dyno operator and have them check your fueling and report back. I would be happy to overlay my data on it. This is what is expected in the world of fueling, yet Diag users blindly accept and use maps with no verification at all. Absurd to me, but to each his own. Good luck with it.
WG Forum has sucked the lifeblood of the MGNOC into oblivion, and there are so many haters on that site. For the small few people who I've tried to do business with that turned unreasonably south, just love to pile on there. It's the Forum of know-it-all grumpy old bastards who all act like childen (with a rare few exceptions like Bill Hagan, JB Weld and Chuck in Indiana to name just a few). Do me a favor and do not post anything about me or my work there any more. I would appreciate if you deleted the thread.

 

[GTM®]

Todd, for what it's worth, I did post on the other site that my bike (V7ii) continues to run great with the GT map.

Thank you very much for that. I haven't and will not read the thread. Google Alerts captured the first post for me, and I'm sure it went downhill from there. Some people resent the fact that I make a $ on anything. Give it all away for free, and they'll love you forever.

 

[Bob Ponticelli]

Bob, the bus reference wasn't at you, but there are many others that simply resent me. That said, instead of following up with me, you chose to post a review on the other site.
All I'll add is that I highly recommend that you visit a air/fuel dyno operator and have them check your fueling and report back. I would be happy to overlay my data on it. This is what is expected in the world of fueling, yet Diag users blindly accept and use maps with no verification at all. Absurd to me, but to each his own. Good luck with it. Basing your review purely on opinion and feel is hugely problematic and detrimental on so many levels. Also posting a review on another Forum without allowing me to correct the map for your bike is also, well, just lame.
WG Forum has sucked the lifeblood of the MGNOC into oblivion, and there are so many haters on that site. For the small few people who I've tried to do business with that turned south, just love to pile on there. The Forum of grumpy old bastards who act like children.

Hi Todd,

I believe I had the contacted you on the issue and I chose not to follow your advice (remove o2 sensor). The other chap (nice guy too) said "try-this". I did and honestly my bike ran smoother (subjective) but as I said feels not as great throttle response (also subjective). Anyway, I do not want to pi$$ on the diff forums. I have found great help both on WG and the GT forum.

I typically do not have a lot of time to fiddle-futz with my bike (things like unplug my o2 sensor). Anyone can see this by the mileage and year of bike.

I have given business to GT over the past several years all the way back to a VDST (spelling?) tool for my v11. Most recently head protectors, Flash Tool and sump extenders (GT/AF1) and many other things on my wish-list. I like and appreciate your offerings. Like I said, I also appreciate both sites and gain knowledge from each.

 

[GTM®]

I believe I had the contacted you on the issue and I chose not to follow your advice (remove o2 sensor)... (the other map) as I said feels not as great throttle response (also subjective).

This was to give me direction on further correcting the map, that is all. Your choice, but not following up and chosing to review it on another Forum(?). If you don't see the harm in your posts, so be it.
There is a reason that the throttle response "feels different." I strongly encourage you to find out why with air/fuel data. Assume none was posted or you didn't ask, correct?
I appreciate all of the business, but fueling is something that I have invested largely in, in both time and money. Honest and accurate Reviews are all I have. When business wanes, so will I.

 

[GTM®]

Unfortunately, the factory maps are rich all over, especially at the top end of the rev range

Not all true, see the air/fuel data in this thread for example; https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/guzzitech-power-commander-v-information.2686/

Add ons like Finebau Forge or FatDuc, simply richen up the whole map so it runs better around town, which further compromises top end running

Any stock 02-sensor manipulation only effects low speed (closed-loop) fueling, and has no impact on open loop. Only air sensor manipulation effects the entire map.

 

[King of Fleece]

Interesting. I've said it several times prior-my 2015 V7 with a GT remap for Agostini pipes runs perfect.

 

[PP-1753]

Todd, you are correct - I was thinking of the change the value of the airbox temperature sensor. Lambda only works in closed loop mode. My apologies to everyone.

My comments about the maps are the ones I have seen - primarily the 1200 4/8 valve. so again I apologise.

 

[PP-1753]

Even if everyone is on the same page, there will still be disagreement! Like I said different strokes for different blokes.

 

[Wisconsin v7 Racer]

I typically do not have a lot of time to fiddle-futz with my bike (things like unplug my o2 sensor). Anyone can see this by the mileage and year of bike.

It's very easy to unplug the sensors took me no time at all. I hope you have time to fiddle with the bike to check oil, air pressures, nuts and bolts and other preventive maintenance that a bike requires.

 

[Bob Ponticelli]

QUOTE, I typically do not have a lot of time to fiddle-futz with my bike (things like unplug my o2 sensor). Anyone can see this by the mileage and year of bike.

It's very easy to unplug the sensors took me no time at all. I hope you have time to fiddle with the bike to check oil, air pressures, nuts and bolts and other preventive maintenance that a bike requires.

Yes, but when I purchase a new map I would hope it would have been a load and work. I do not believe I should have to play with it. I have no issues with the work done by Todd and GT....it was better than my stock map. I am merely saying that the map I got from the other the other person was "plug and play" and my bike runs smoother than it did with the GT map. You may call it subjective but no hesitation on start and ride nor any pop on decel, period. Could I play with it and go back and forth with Todd to get it to work even better, perhaps but I do not feel I should have needed to unplug sensors when buying a new map and in fact I didn't.

I am guessing not many have purchased both maps for their v7? I have and I think I can comment more on my experiences with both more than most people can.

 

[GTM®]

Could I play with it and go back and forth with Todd to get it to work even better, perhaps but I do not feel I should have needed to unplug sensors when buying a new map and in fact I didn't.
I am guessing not many have purchased both maps for their v7? I have and I think I can comment more on my experiences with both more than most people can.

Most often bikes can be very different from what I have found. As stated dozens of times, the fact that the factory makes them run at all with emission requirements is impressive. You may have (or not) lucked out with the other map. Again my comments are being ignored about finding out about air/fuel data that you are currently running. Or you can do like most others and ignore me, and hope that someone that tinkers with maps knows far better. So again, show us the air/fuel and dyno graphs. This is what I most always show, as anyone even slightly knowledgeable of fueling should ask or provide.
My history and methods speaks for itself. I have seen a few maps from 'Beetle' in which I've over-written because the owners simply didn't feel it did much as to "improvements." What I exposed was methodology that was downright brutal on the air/fuel gauge, largely including closed throttle. He must know better than Marelli and the factory.
If you can't see how your post on the other Forum was very detrimental without proof, meaning purely your opinion, then I have nothing else to add.

Even if everyone is on the same page, there will still be disagreement! Like I said different strokes for different blokes.

Disagreement, sure... but no arguing the simple facts of the science of fueling. Is it up for debate on how to trust your motors health and longevity from a garage mechanic(?), or use one that is built from the technology of a company that has a very large stake in commercial fueling, dynos and has multiple world records at Bonneville, to name just a few things they've done to date...?

 

[GTM®]

So again, show us the air/fuel and dyno graphs. This is what is always asked of by everyone here, from me.

Well, that's what I thought. Nothing. Got it... so noted. Thread is now locked.