Jackal clicking noise when warmed up

[hvanhaaho]

Hello everyone

I've recently bought Jackal -01 that has some valve noise on one side when the engine is warmed up.

I hope someone on this forum has faced the same problem and solved it. It only has 12,000 km on the odometer, but of course it's possible that it has been changed earlier at some point. Anyway the bike looks new so the km could be correct.

- The valve clearances has been checked.
- rocker arms and rods has been checked.
- The longitudinal movement of the rocker arm has been checked
- No metal pieces in the oil. Everything what can be seen from bottom looks like new.

It sounds like a metallic click-clack sound. After I have adjusted the valve clearance or removed and installed the rockers, sound can move from one cylinder to the other side. I would assume that the cause must be then some common part/function for both cylinders.

There is a lot of room for wear in the valve adjustments. I expect this means that the valve mechanism parts (rocker arm, rods, valve tappets, camshaft) have not been wear out.

I know that Guzzi'es use to make loud sound but this is excessively loud when warmed up.

After driving season in Finland ends, I will look it little bit deeper. Any hints what I should check first ?

Regards,

Harri

P.S. Sorry about bad English..

 

[Lannis]

Hello everyone

I've recently bought Jackal -01 that has some valve noise on one side when the engine is warmed up.

I hope someone on this forum has faced the same problem and solved it. It only has 12,000 km on the odometer, but of course it's possible that it has been changed earlier at some point. Anyway the bike looks new so the km could be correct.

- The valve clearances has been checked.
- rocker arms and rods has been checked.
- The longitudinal movement of the rocker arm has been checked
- No metal pieces in the oil. Everything what can be seen from bottom looks like new.

It sounds like a metallic click-clack sound. After I have adjusted the valve clearance or removed and installed the rockers, sound can move from one cylinder to the other side. I would assume that the cause must be then some common part/function for both cylinders.

There is a lot of room for wear in the valve adjustments. I expect this means that the valve mechanism parts (rocker arm, rods, valve tappets, camshaft) have not been wear out.

I know that Guzzi'es use to make loud sound but this is excessively loud when warmed up.

After driving season in Finland ends, I will look it little bit deeper. Any hints what I should check first ?

Regards,

Harri

P.S. Sorry about bad English..

Harri-

One thing you can be assured of; there's no communication problem here. Your English is excellent!

Lannis

 

[Vagrant]

What did you set the valves at? 4 & 6 thousands, or 6 & 8.

 

[hvanhaaho]

What did you set the valves at? 4 & 6 thousands, or 6 & 8.

I used 4 (0.10mm) for intake and 6 (0.15mm) for exhaust. These are factory specifications in EU.
I also used smaller values but no effect to the noise.

 

[Bill Hagan]

You might also consider the possibility that it is not valve clatter, but loose fasteners that attach the flanges and header pipes to the heads.

There's been quite a bit of discussion of that here before, so I'll leave that to a search if you think it worthy instead of rehashing it here. That said, when those fasteners loosen they can cause a pronounced ticking noise that is similar to -- especially to worried ears --valve clatter.

Again, may be something else, and the sound "moving from side to side” is odd, tho both sides might be loose. Anyway, I wanted to mention it as you have not yet ID'd the issue.

OBTW, Harri, Lannis on oikeassa. Jos näkisit tai kuulisit, kuinka useimmat ihmiset täällä teurastavat englannin kieltä -- jopa "Google Translate" toiminnolla (kuten käytän täällä) -- et pyytäisi anteeksi englantiasi, joka on melko hyvä.

Bill

 

[hvanhaaho]

You might also consider the possibility that it is not valve clatter, but loose fasteners that attach the flanges and header pipes to the heads.

There's been quite a bit of discussion of that here before, so I'll leave that to a search if you think it worthy instead of rehashing it here. That said, when those fasteners loosen they can cause a pronounced ticking noise that is similar to -- especially to worried ears --valve clatter.

Again, may be something else, and the sound "moving from side to side” is odd, tho both sides might be loose. Anyway, I wanted to mention it as you have not yet ID'd the issue.

OBTW, Harri, Lannis on oikeassa. Jos näkisit tai kuulisit, kuinka useimmat ihmiset täällä teurastavat englannin kieltä -- jopa "Google Translate" toiminnolla (kuten käytän täällä) -- et pyytäisi anteeksi englantiasi, joka on melko hyvä.

Bill

I don't believe loosen fasteners are reason but I will check them for sure. Thanks for the hint.

Google Translate seems to make very good job at least from English to Finnish
I use Google Translate only finding correct mechanical part names which are many times strange for even in Finnish.

 

[Lannis]

I don't believe loosen fasteners are reason but I will check them for sure. Thanks for the hint.

Google Translate seems to make very good job at least from English to Finnish
I use Google Translate only finding correct mechanical part names which are many times strange for even in Finnish.

Google Translate does do a pretty good job from what I could tell.

But I could already tell that you were not using Google Translate for your posts, and that you were posting from your own knowledge of English. Your English is good and is idiomatic, and as Bill said, is better than many Americans use. But the small deviations from correctness that would maybe change an "A" to a "B+" grade in a freshman university course are (1) Use of prepositions such as 'a', 'an', and 'the' and (2) the 'tense' of our horribly irregular verbs, such as "has/have" and "wear/worn". Google Translate would already have those in its lookup table. I always enjoyed my Linguistics, Etymology, and Logic classes in college, and I'm constantly amazed that a person can keep a Finno-Ugric language and an Indo-European language in their head at the same time.

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to hearing what the final resolution on your clicking noise is.

I can tell you that I when the fellow who introduced me to Guzzis named Jack Arnold rode from Ohio to Virginia to a Guzzi rally, he was riding a mid-1980s California II with 140,000 miles on it. The right cylinder was "Ticking" so loud you could barely hear the exhaust; I mean, it was bad. I was expecting a pushrod or connecting rod to appear any minute. I asked Jack as he was headed back to Ohio if the sound didn't concern him. He said "No, it's been doing that for years. It's just a Guzzi noise." He's gone now, but I don't think the bike ever let him down .....

Lannis

 

[Vagrant]

At 4 & 6 the only way it would be a valve clacking is if there is no oil to it or the rocker shaft is worn out. I would doubt that at your mileage.
You could take a long plastic handle screwdriver and put the plastic end up to your ear and move the end from area to area. You should be able to hear it then.

 

[Bill Hagan]

Apropos of @Lannis's (wonderful) comments about word usage and similar issues, I have always been fond of strong verbs.

In my opinion, the English language is poorer when a mere "ed" or the like can turn a fine word in the present tense into a mere longer insipid past-tense version.

That said, it is possible that I am an oft-mistaken pedant, as I am still manning the increasingly lonely ramparts of Western Civilization by insisting that the past tense of "wreak" is "wrought," not wreaked." I will not surrender even, as it seems, reality has left me behind.

Now, back (at last! ) to whatever is causing that noise you report.

I think I have posted this tale here before, but a few years ago, I pulled into the nearby service station to refuel. I was resetting the trip meter while the Griso rumbled contentedly below me.

A man came running up, literally screaming and waving his arms. That worried me a bit, but then I heard what he was saying:

"Shut it down! Shut it down! I'm an auto mechanic. It's going to blow!"

When I told him that it was a Moto Guzzi and that they "all sounded like that," he went off muttering.

Bill

 

[Raven]

A similar thing happened to me. I was also sitting at a gas pump on my Norge resetting my trip meter when a fellow got off his Honda and came over to me. He said " Nice looking bike but you really need to tune that thing up. It's running rough and making a lot of valve noise." I replied politely, "OK, Thanks".

 

[Nordicnorm]

Bear with me, this is going to take a while.
Here in N.America we have a product called "Sea Foam". It is a pure petroleum product, so there is no 'Snake Oil" in it. Has been around since the '40s. A commercial fisherman told me about it. He lives on a sailboat and operates a commercial fishing vessel out of Astoria at the mouth of the Columbia River. He said "I have more engines, outboards and generators than most people, and I use it in everything."
He also owned 2 motorcycles, and commuted from Vancouver Island to Astoria on a regular basis.
It stabilizes fuel, cleans carbs and injectors and loosens sticking engine parts.
It can be added to your fuel or engine oil.
When I bought my 01 Jackal in '07, with 30K km, I was surprised how clattery it was. Then I found some abnormal wear on the rocker arms where they contact the valve stems. Made it hard to read the feeler gauge clearance. I had the rockers re-surfaced (radiused), but there was clatter coming from elsewhere, like noisy tappets. Like yours, the rattling would come and go with engine temp etc.
Over time I came to the conclusion that the engine had at one time been run dangerously low on oil, leading to overheating of what little was left. It had been ridden from the west coast to Sturgis and back, likely in the heat of summer.
So I decided to give Sea Foam a try. I added the prescribed amount to a fresh oil change. 500 km later it was obvious to my ears that things were changing. The bike was noticeably quieter. I continued using the product, and over the following couple of years, the bike returned to normal. I kept that bike for 13 years and sold it with 110K km. I still see it around here. It never used oil, and was a real charmer.
This stuff won't do anything for you if your bike is healthy (including harm). It won't fix broken parts. Some people poopoo it as snake oil, but I believe it freed up some of the parts in my motor that were "baked" in oil.
Maybe you can find it in Finland through Amazon or ebay, or maybe your automotive supply house.
Hope you can give it a try before winter. No harm in trying it.
Best of luck, these are great bikes.

 

[hvanhaaho]

It seems to be available in Finland too. Maybe I will try it. I have already used a motor treatment called as X1R. I think it is quite similar.

Thanks.

 

[hvanhaaho]

Apropos of @Lannis's (wonderful) comments about word usage and similar issues, I have always been fond of strong verbs.

In my opinion, the English language poorer when a mere "ed" or the like can turn a fine word in the present tense into a mere longer insipid version.

That said, it is possible that I am an oft-mistaken pedant, as I am still manning the increasingly lonely ramparts of Western Civilization by insisting that the past tense of "wreak" is "wrought," not wreaked." I will not surrender even, as it seems, reality has left me behind.

Now, back (at last! ) to whatever is causing that noise you report.

I think I have posted this tale here before, but a few years ago, I pulled into the nearby service station to refuel. I was resetting the trip meter while the Griso rumbled contentedly below me.

A man came running up, literally screaming and waving his arms. That worried me a bit, but then I heard what he was saying:

"Shut it down! Shut it down! I'm an auto mechanic. It's going to blow!"

When I told him that it was a Moto Guzzi and that they "all sounded like that," he went off muttering.

Bill

At 4 & 6 the only way it would be a valve clacking is if there is no oil to it or the rocker shaft is worn out. I would doubt that at your mileage.
You could take a long plastic handle screwdriver and put the plastic end up to your ear and move the end from area to area. You should be able to hear it then.

I have a stetoscope for that. The noise is loudest on beside of cylinder at close to the exhaust valve.

 

[hvanhaaho]

I checked also that an oil flows well to the rockers and the rocker shaft is not worn-out.

 

[Lannis]

Bear with me, this is going to take a while.
Here in N.America we have a product called "Sea Foam". It is a pure petroleum product, so there is no 'Snake Oil" in it. Has been around since the '40s. A commercial fisherman told me about it. He lives on a sailboat and operates a commercial fishing vessel out of Astoria at the mouth of the Columbia River. He said "I have more engines, outboards and generators than most people, and I use it in everything."
He also owned 2 motorcycles, and commuted from Vancouver Island to Astoria on a regular basis.
It stabilizes fuel, cleans carbs and injectors and loosens sticking engine parts.
It can be added to your fuel or engine oil.
When I bought my 01 Jackal in '07, with 30K km, I was surprised how clattery it was. Then I found some abnormal wear on the rocker arms where they contact the valve stems. Made it hard to read the feeler gauge clearance. I had the rockers re-surfaced (radiused), but there was clatter coming from elsewhere, like noisy tappets. Like yours, the rattling would come and go with engine temp etc.
Over time I came to the conclusion that the engine had at one time been run dangerously low on oil, leading to overheating of what little was left. It had been ridden from the west coast to Sturgis and back, likely in the heat of summer.
So I decided to give Sea Foam a try. I added the prescribed amount to a fresh oil change. 500 km later it was obvious to my ears that things were changing. The bike was noticeably quieter. I continued using the product, and over the following couple of years, the bike returned to normal. I kept that bike for 13 years and sold it with 110K km. I still see it around here. It never used oil, and was a real charmer.
This stuff won't do anything for you if your bike is healthy (including harm). It won't fix broken parts. Some people poopoo it as snake oil, but I believe it freed up some of the parts in my motor that were "baked" in oil.
Maybe you can find it in Finland through Amazon or ebay, or maybe your automotive supply house.
Hope you can give it a try before winter. No harm in trying it.
Best of luck, these are great bikes.

The above with "Marvel Mystery Oil" substituted for "SeaFoam" will read exactly the same. I say try one of the two and see what happens. It can't hurt.

Lannis

 

[hvanhaaho]

Hi,

I like to get back to this clicking sound issue. Could it be caused by a bad tensioner of the timing chain ?
As the engine and chain warm up, it may lengthen. If the tensioner is not working well enough, can it cause noise in the valve mechanism? My first thought was no, because it should be designed to tolerate temperature impact and bad tensioner should also cause noise in the chain mechanism itself, not changing timing.

What is your opinion ? It is still warm in Finland, but soon it will get colder and I will start to disassemble the engine to see what is a problem. I just thinking where to start...

Regards,

Harri

 

[john zibell]

Hi,

I like to get back to this clicking sound issue. Could it be caused by a bad tensioner of the timing chain ?
As the engine and chain warm up, it may lengthen. If the tensioner is not working well enough, can it cause noise in the valve mechanism? My first thought was no, because it should be designed to tolerate temperature impact and bad tensioner should also cause noise in the chain mechanism itself, not changing timing.

What is your opinion ? It is still warm in Finland, but soon it will get colder and I will start to disassemble the engine to see what is a problem. I just thinking where to start...

Regards,

Harri

A good indicator of a worn chain and tensioner is debris in the oil pan. I would check the pan before going after the timing chain. If the bike is a high mileage unit, the tensioner may have worn out. They usually last up to 100K miles /161K Kilometers. The sound from a bad chain is more like a slapping sound though. If you go into the timing chest locate a bow type tensioner as these work well in the Tonti engine. I had to make a socket from two impact deep sockets to access the crankshaft nut.