More Norge weirdness

[oca grassa]

This weekend, I plugged the hose between the airbox and the stepper motor. Also, reconnected the evap cannister hoses that were disconnected at the tank.

Today, with ambient air temp at 48 F indicated on the dash, startup was not immediate as it had been previous to plugging the stepper motor line. Once it did start, it chugged along at a 1200 rpm idle.

Along my normal commute, the engine idle remained 1200 rpm. This remained the same all the way to work. This afternoon, with ambient temp an indicated 58 F on the dash, start up was immediate but would not remain running without some application of throttle.

Idle remained a constant 1200 rpm for most of my afternoon commute. A few traffic lights before home, idle increased to 1500 rpm for no apparent reason….unless I shifted into neutral and released the clutch lever.

Idle reduced to 1200 rpm as soon as the clutch lever was released. As soon as the clutch lever was squeezed back to the bar, idle increased to 1500 rpm with no other change. This was repeatable all the way home.

Once home and parked; transmission in neutral clutch still disengaged, idle remained at 1500 rpm. Clutch engaged (lever released) idle dropped to 1300 rpm. A few seconds of that and idle dropped to 1200 and finally to 1100.

After a few more seconds, the idle began to hunt like there was a vacuum leak. 1300 at the highest. 1100 at the lowest. This continued for several minutes before I hit the kill switch.

Unsure what all of that indicates on the whole. Makes me wonder if one or both temp senders have some sort of heat induced malfunction. Also odd to me that the idle reduces when the clutch is engaged with the trans in neutral.

Any ideas?

 

[Kevin.NZ]

On my Breva 1100 the revs increase by 100 to 200 rpm when the clutch is operated. The micro switch under the clutch lever is not only a safety switch in case you put it in gear without the clutch but also increases the rpm to compensate for the extra load of the clutch being engaged. I thought it instructed the ECU to operate the stepper motor, not sure whats happening on your bike as you have the stepper motor input sealed.

 

[oca grassa]

Not so much the input but the air supply. The stepper is free to do its thing. It’s still plugged in to both harness and throttle bodies. Just nothing in the way of extra air is introduced when the stepper does its thing.

The only other way for the idle to increase, without physical manipulation of the throttle or idle screw adjustment is by signal from the ECU. ECU will increase idle if it receives a reference signal it interprets as engine cold or air temp cold.

If that signal is generated by the sensor(s) when the engine is hot, that would explain what the Norge is doing. The oscillating idle still mystifies me. It seemed at 1st like it was hunting…like an engine with a vacuum leak. This is too regular and too closely spaced to be a vacuum issue.

Almost as if the stepper functioning is causing it.

For certain, I will be doing the fuel valve mod to manually introduce an air supply when cold. I’ll post pics once I have it neat & tidily routed.

The rest….I’ll test the sensors and see what kind of voltage they’re producing. Maybe use a heat gun to bring them up to temp and see what the signal voltage looks like then. Laterz….

 

[M0T0Geezer]

Firstly, I rode a 2007 Norge for maybe 2 1/2 years. Sold it in 2019. It always suffered with a too-fast (in my opinion) idle, namely 1100-1200 rpm. Don't feel alone. I wanted a 1,000 rpm idle but could not ever get it to settle down no matter what I tried.

Many offered excellent help here (see below) but the Gods of Guzzi would have none of it. Still, my Norge was a magnificent machine that I loved riding above all my others [see: dansher.com/mywheels.htm ] - except for maybe my 2004 Breva 750cc.

Links to 90% of all I ever tried and/or learned about my 2007 Norge is in this on-line text file. I hope you find some tips that the GoG will honor. Here's the Norge URL:

dansher.com/bikepix/Guzzi/Norge1200/Norge_2007_fyi.txt

'Geezer

 

[V700Steve]

All sounds normal to me, you aught to read some threads from 15 yrs ago. It was the "Thing" everyone wanted a fix for their stepper issue.

 

[oca grassa]

Firstly, I rode a 2007 Norge for maybe 2 1/2 years. Sold it in 2019.

Thanks ‘Geezer…..read through some of that while eating lunch….had to put my reading glasses on!! Like looking at something out of the internet’s primordial past!!

I’m okay with the idle at 11-1200….seems normal to me. My S2R similarly idles at 1100 rpm which is what the shop manual says it’s supposed to be.

Just seems weirdly glitchy when the idle is suddenly 1500 rpm for no apparent reason.

 

[oca grassa]

All sounds normal to me, you aught to read some threads from 15 yrs ago. It was the "Thing" everyone wanted a fix for their stepper issue.

Normal? Guess that’s as good as it’s gonna get then? I know I shouldn’t but I keep referring back to my S2R as it has the same Marelli ECU (5.9M?) but none of the fueling weirdness. Guess it really is just a different beast.

 

[GTM®]

Normal? Guess that’s as good as it’s gonna get then? I know I shouldn’t but I keep referring back to my S2R as it has the same Marelli ECU (5.9M?) but none of the fueling weirdness. Guess it really is just a different beast.

Since you're new here, note many here have been deep in this brand since the late 90s, and lived with and professionally wrenched on them (me included). This isn't a social media site, it's a factual based private Tech website, that has been dedicated to helping owners since 2001. Contributions here are always welcome, but search first. Most "issues" people are trying to solve have been well covered here for a decade plus.
I built an electronic valve for the Norge idle/stepper, when I owned one more than a decade and a half ago, to offer to those here.
It's only problematic for idle and pop-on-decel on the 2V Norge. Many other models have the same system have no issues.
Your Ducati is a very different animal, regardless of ECU type (5AM on Guzzi BTW).

 

[Sempervee1]

It seems it be taken for granted but I assume you have done all that is required for a tune up valves, and adjusted the TPS and TBS sync and spark plugs, inspected wires, etc. *If that has been done a scary ride across the Antioch bridge there in your riding area - might well cure it. :^) That bridge always made me nervous to ride over.

 

[tobinh]

This weekend, I plugged the hose between the airbox and the stepper motor. Also, reconnected the evap cannister hoses that were disconnected at the tank.

Today, with ambient air temp at 48 F indicated on the dash, startup was not immediate as it had been previous to plugging the stepper motor line. Once it did start, it chugged along at a 1200 rpm idle.

Along my normal commute, the engine idle remained 1200 rpm. This remained the same all the way to work. This afternoon, with ambient temp an indicated 58 F on the dash, start up was immediate but would not remain running without some application of throttle.

Idle remained a constant 1200 rpm for most of my afternoon commute. A few traffic lights before home, idle increased to 1500 rpm for no apparent reason….unless I shifted into neutral and released the clutch lever.

Idle reduced to 1200 rpm as soon as the clutch lever was released. As soon as the clutch lever was squeezed back to the bar, idle increased to 1500 rpm with no other change. This was repeatable all the way home.

Once home and parked; transmission in neutral clutch still disengaged, idle remained at 1500 rpm. Clutch engaged (lever released) idle dropped to 1300 rpm. A few seconds of that and idle dropped to 1200 and finally to 1100.

After a few more seconds, the idle began to hunt like there was a vacuum leak. 1300 at the highest. 1100 at the lowest. This continued for several minutes before I hit the kill switch.

Unsure what all of that indicates on the whole. Makes me wonder if one or both temp senders have some sort of heat induced malfunction. Also odd to me that the idle reduces when the clutch is engaged with the trans in neutral.

Any ideas?

I don't know what all you've done, this is an old bike we're talking about - and from your other thread I saw, it seems to have a bit of a strange history.

In the last few years I've had my (B11, same platform) intake completely apart, changed plug wires, exhaust gaskets, throttle bodies removed and cleaned, throttle cables cleaned and lubed, various hoses replaced, etc... all of these things may need to be done before you start worrying about a few hundred rpm in your idle - in addition to basic maintenance like valve adjustments and throttle bodies synced, TPS reset, etc. etc. etc.

honestly it's all pretty easy, but do it all - or you don't have any kind of baseline to work from.

 

[V700Steve]

I thought it looked like others even down to the clutch switch increase. What you consider weirdness I see as normal. Glad to be retired and not working on anything newer than CARC's
You wouldn't believe how much better they run with clean TB's, I do mine every 10Kmi
If you keep at it things will all straiten out.

 

[oca grassa]

If you see it as normal, I can accept that it is and simply move on to the next steps in getting the Norge to where I want it. Which is simply working reliably. The more I learn from those who’ve been there already the steeper my learning curve becomes.

I don’t need it to be faster or anything along those lines. I have other bikes for that sorta riding. Tune up steps will follow in due course. Along with an oil change and a revisit of the stepper motor plumbing. I will search Throttle Body cleaning also. Be back after a little while…once I have something more accomplished to share.

 

[oca grassa]

It seems it be taken for granted but I assume you have done all that is required for a tune up valves, and adjusted the TPS and TBS sync and spark plugs, inspected wires, etc. *If that has been done a scary ride across the Antioch bridge there in your riding area - might well cure it. :^) That bridge always made me nervous to ride over.

View attachment 39069

I’ve been over the Antioch Strait bridge (SR160)….and don’t recall it being that drastically tall. Are we talking about the same bridge? Only bridge that really makes me nervous to cross is the Imola Ave bridge in Napa. The entire road bed on it is steel grate.

In answer to your 1st query, no. Nothing tune up related has been done as yet. I’ve had the Norge since mid Novemberish and it’s rained more days than not, so not torn into it.

 

[Sempervee1]

Yup that is the one... *Baseline maintenance is needed before anything else.