Norge battery (RIP?)

[RJVB]

I've already had a couple of long chats with Todd about this, but here goes anyway:

I have my Norge for about 1.5 years now, 24k km on the clock, never any problems starting other than a slightly low idle on a cold engine on cold days that can cause a stall (surfaced after the 10k km. service).

Did about 300km the weekend before last (she ran beautifully), then another 95 or so last Friday evening to go to my gf's place on the country side. No issues. Temperatures the last couple of weeks have been going up and down, but never below say 6ºC at night (dash read between 15º and 11ºC during last Friday's ride). I left the bike (parked outside) during Saturday, and then intended to leave for a ride Sunday afternoon.

Contact - lightshow - OK. Hit starter button ...

CLICK

dash dies

lightshow

OK.

Hmmm. Hit starter again - CLICK - etc.

Damn ... 95km from home, and ride projects the next week. Looking at the dash voltage, I saw 10.5V (or so), but that continued to drop to a low of about 9.6V after leaving the contact on for a while.

Cut a long story short, didn't succeed to jump-start her using a booster provided by a neighbour, but push-starting worked. I did about 50km keeping her at no less than 2k rpm (interesting exercise - front-braking AND keeping the gas open!). Dash voltage read 13.5V while riding, which apparently charged the battery enough to hold idle, show 12.6V or so on the dash immediately after killing the engine and more importantly, allow her to start normally about 2h later.

Did the 95km back home to Paris, parked, and unhooked the negative pole just to be sure (about 20:30). Came back Monday afternoon around 15:30, hooked her back up, and she started fine. Took the battery out anyway to put it on a slow charger overnight. Following morning (a good 16h later), took it off the charger, immediate read-out was 14.5V (and falling), 12.88V after a few hours sitting on my desk. Had it load-tested later that evening, which apparently checked out fine. So I put the battery back in the bike (fiddly job when you only have sodium-style street-lighting available!). Dash said 11.8V after the lightshow (hmmm...), but the engine started fine. (In fact, I think that I've always seen a similar figure the few times I checked the voltage.) Haven't had the time to check the state of things this morning.

So, according to Todd, the most likely cause is a dying AGM battery. It's pointless here to try and have my factory warranty cover this, apparently (a new battery has a year's cover, but the ones bought with a new vehicle aren't covered?!), so I ordered a new one at the largest national MC retailer (Cardy). Hold your breath: a YTX20CH-BS (made by France Equipements) will set me back 234€, the Yuasa one would be 275€ OUCH!

I'm hoping that'll be all, and that it's indeed just my original battery that's dying prematurely. But what if not? My dealer tells me he's hardly seen any problems with batteries (and I'm presuming that includes de/charging issues). What would be the most logical place to start looking or testing myself? A leak or short or charging issue *ought* to be covered under warranty, but it'd be nice to be able to turn the bike in with a likely diagnosis ready.

Some additional questions:
- the manual says to put the kill switch in the Off (killed) position when messing with the battery. I indeed noticed that otherwise, the fuel pump runs (is tested?) when reconnecting the negative pole. So - is there less power-draw with the switch in the Off position?

- Getting at the battery poles is a big hassle, so I'm thinking of installing me a socket for hooking up a jump-starter more easily. I might just take a simple 2-wire mains cable with male and female plugs (female to be on the bike), that should support the power draw during starting, no? Any suggestions there (no, I also don't like the idea that someday I might be stupid enough to hook her up to the 220V AC through that socket :silly: )

- the bleed hose of the clutch circuit touches the negative pole. Seems very hard to avoid that. It's a metal-braided hose that appears to be covered with a clear layer of plastic or vinyl, but that can have worn through locally due to vibrations. I guess that shouldn't matter, but is it positively sure that this cannot be a source of a short or leak?

- For future reference - why is that battery so damn expensive? I've seen other 12V 18AH batteries by Yuasa that are (unfortunately) slightly larger and cost about 100€ less - and for which Todd showed me alternatives costing about 90$. Thing is, the battery compartment won't accept a battery that's even slightly larger (than 15x16x8 cm, IIRC). Any suggestions for cheaper replacements that are easily available in Western Europe would be very welcome! (Esp. if they have better cold-weather performance )

I'll keep you posted.
René

 

[RJVB]

PS - push-starting seems to be bad for the ECU (or more exactly, it could cause damage through a voltage spike). Now I know that the intelligent starting algorithm just doesn't work under a certain voltage, but apart from that, what if you help the starter motor? Like using the starter button say running downhill in 2nd and the clutch slightly out so the engine is turning over?

 

[Mike.C]

It could be just the battery..... but I have had regular similar experience with the Breva with both the OEM battery and a replacement that is not Yuasa (can't remember the brand and it's dark outside).

When it goes flat, I just put it on to charge and it seems to always come good, what I am not sure of is why it would go flat.... Pete Roper said that after three days the security system turns itself off (not very helpful if the bike is stolen on the 4th day), but I don't have it enabled and I have tested for current flow with the key off and my meter (such as it is) read zero.

It's a mystery for sure.

 

[WayneOrwig]

You make it sound like something stayed on once and just rain the battery flat. Odd


RJVB wrote:

- Getting at the battery poles is a big hassle, so I'm thinking of installing me a socket for hooking up a jump-starter more easily. I might just take a simple 2-wire mains cable with male and female plugs (female to be on the bike), that should support the power draw during starting, no? Any suggestions there (no, I also don't like the idea that someday I might be stupid enough to hook her up to the 220V AC through that socket :silly: )

When you jump start anything, you always should connect the ground for the weak vehicle directly to the block. A connector isn't a good idea for that and other reasons.
A connector for a small charger may not be a bad idea though.

 

[RJVB]

Mike: how do you switch off the security (other than by unhooking the battery)? To my knowledge, the standard security is just an electronic anti-start circuit, no idea what it does exactly other than reading the key's signature. Maybe Pete meant that what's switched off is just the flashing LED?

Wayne: I'll have more info tonight after checking on the battery, but I've indeed thought that something or someone may have emptied my battery last weekend. I'm sure it's not the parking lights, though, I arrived after dark and would have noticed if I'd left them on (the advantage of being OCD - I always check at least twice if the bike's stable on the stand ).
How annoying that clock and trip info are not stored in non-volatile memory!!

I don't completely understand your explanation: which ground should be connected to what block (the engine?) ? The Norge's negative pole is accessible easily enough, so if it's that connection that needs to be undone, that's doable (except I don't see how you'd restore the connection without killing the engine).
I could always install a single connector, for the positive pole only — that'd already make the operation a whole lot easier!

I see I forgot a question.
- After my last service (20000km one during which my dash was completely reset), my conso went up considerably - from somewhat under 5l/100km at 90km/h to a good 6l/100km at the same speed. In-town mileage during constant-speed 50km/h stretches didn't change. I've been going back to mileage figures I saw before the service. Almost as if engine performance is sampled, and parameters are stored (in volatile memory) in order to improve fuel efficiency. Is that possible?

Oh, and blush ... it seems I may have forgotten my personal code :S ... is there any way to reset that one should that indeed be the case? (Heck, I can't even remember what that code is good for, other than to go into the diagnostics menu)

 

[WayneOrwig]

RJVB wrote:

I don't completely understand your explanation: which ground should be connected to what block (the engine?) ? The Norge's negative pole is accessible easily enough, so if it's that connection that needs to be undone, that's doable (except I don't see how you'd restore the connection without killing the engine).
I could always install a single connector, for the positive pole only — that'd already make the operation a whole lot easier!

On the good vehicle, connect jumpers directly to the battery.
On the bad vehicle, connect the positive to the battery and the negative to the engine block.

On older Guzzi's I would cheat and use the positive post on the starter and the engine block. Never got near the battery. Modern Guzzi's have a senseless cover over the starter.

 

[RJVB]

Thanks, Wayne. I guess "good vehicle" can also read "separate battery" or jump-starter box ...

So, time for an update. Minutes ago, I went out to the bike, and turned the contact. The dash told me the battery was still at 11.7V which dropped to 11.6V but stayed there, so only very slightly down compared to yesterday — even though temps have gone down quite a bit. I couldn't resist trying to start the engine. A bit laboursome given the cold, but she fired after only a second or 2. I had the time to see the dash reading go down to 9.9 or 9.6V, and come back up when the engine turned. Revving to a bit over 2k brought the reading up to about 13.3V.

Maybe not values to be extremely proud of, but in the norm, no?

Of course I waited only about 24h, another 19 or so are needed to simulate last weekends conditions.

Beginning to wonder if I really had to flunk all that cash on a new battery yet. Decided to get me a small "battery driver" (12V 1A). Didn't come with a cig lighter adapter, so I guess I'll make one of those myself - any pitfalls to avoid with that?

Thanks again...
René

 

[nel]

I ride a breva V1100 which should have the same battery compartment as a norge. I bought a Varta YTX20-BS. Is is a centimeter longer but you just trim the plastic compartment lid and foot. It fits fine in BREVA for a fraction on the cost of the OEM.

 

[RJVB]

Longer ... erm ... along which side? Also, do you have a Breva with ABS? There isn't too much space between the battery compartment and the ABS pump with its hoses.

But thx for the tip

 

[StormShearon]

I keep my Norge hooked up to a Battery Tender when parked. I have done the same for the last three bikes (all AGM batteries) and that seems to keep them healthy. I still replace the battery on a 4 to 5 year schedule and don't wait for failure.

Also, I think you can turn off the LED for the security chip, but all modern vehicles drain some power when shut off and will flatten the battery eventually if not riddendriven enough or kept on an intelligent charger when parked.

 

[Bill Hagan]

StormShearon wrote:

I keep my Norge hooked up to a Battery Tender when parked. I have done the same for the last three bikes (all AGM batteries) and that seems to keep them healthy. I still replace the battery on a 4 to 5 year schedule and don't wait for failure.

Also, I think you can turn off the LED for the security chip, but all modern vehicles drain some power when shut off and will flatten the battery eventually if not riddendriven enough or kept on an intelligent charger when parked.

As Wayne (along with countless others here and elsewhere :blink: ), I know next to nothing about m/c electrics.

Now, that said, I assume you mean a BT Plus. I say that because it is my understanding that BT Jr.s (such as the one I have) are not compatible with newer gel bats as in (at least as in OEM) in the Norges. I may have damaged my battery by using one, as I get lots of "fuzz" on the positive terminal.

Now back to your regular programming.

Bill

P.S. Just back from a great 2000-plus-miler to Baltimore and n. Va. Yee ha. Pix and as few words as I can muster--a challenge for me--when I can get the former uploaded and captioned. What a grand ride.

 

[StormShearon]

Yes - always a BT Plus. I buy one for each bike shortly after buying the bike.

 

[patrick]

Battery tenders or the Euro version Optimate don't work on AGM batteries.
CTek do a charger that will keep a gel battery toped up.

 

[RJVB]

How so, doesn't work? I had my battery charged in a carpark garage, with a simple slow charger that looks it's been around since long before AGM batteries?!

 

[Bill Hagan]

RJVB wrote:

How so, doesn't work? I had my battery charged in a carpark garage, with a simple slow charger that looks it's been around since long before AGM batteries?!

Hmmmmm. This is what I get when I peck out something to "help," then realize I'm in over my head. :S

I had thought that AGM and gel were synonymous. Not. See, e.g., discussion here: http://www.fireblades.org/forums/genera ... post668515

So, I'll now do what I should have done earlier, shut up.

Seriously, I did look around BT website and other places not so long ago and thought I'd read that one shouldn't use a BT Jr. on newer sealed batteries. Obviously, I did not understand what was being said. I await an education from the 'lectrics here.

Bill

 

[Mike.C]

René

The security system I have turned off is the flashing LED - I am puzzled about what Pete meant in regards to the secutiry system turning off. He did say that it is 'supposed to' but he suspects that in actual fact doesn't here is what he said when I asked him if he had any ideas (I sure he won't mind me passing it on).

you might try pulling the 30A fuses if its going to sit. That disables the security system and the battery shouldn't drain as fast. It's *supposed* to turn itself off after 3 days but in my experience this often isn't the case

What I have found is that leaving the bike sit for about three weeks flattens the battery, but not really - what I mean is that it has enough voltage to turn over the Minister's Nevada, but not enough to fire the B's starter.

I replaced the battery - made no diference.
and have checked the current drain as I said and it seems to be zero.
I have just given up trying to find the problem and stick a charger on it when I want to ride.

From your description it sounds like we have the same battery disease?

 

[RJVB]

maybe indeed, mike. I've never yet left the bike for more than 2 weeks though, and she's always started right up, except last Sunday - when she'd see quite reasonable riding distances that ought to have kept the battery at least somewhat happy!

Now I don't think that flashing red diode will eat up a lot of charge, but how did you switch it off? Pull a fuse?

BTW, your Breva probably has the same intelligent starter (push once to initiate a 10s starter cycle, rather than push-and-hold the button)? If so, there's a lower volt limit at which it'll accept to work even if it could actually still do the trick, I presume.

 

[Mike.C]

Switching it off is easy - it's a function in the computer. Can't remember just now if it is at user level or at code input level

Yep, same starting system.

 

[RJVB]

Now that you say it, it vaguely rings a bell. Not sure if I'm not confounding with the shift light though - that's also a red flashing diode. Too far gone right now to go check.

Also goes for a supposed strong advice against jump-starting (with cables or anything) that's somewhere in the manual ... anyone remember seeing that?

 

[blackcat]

I have replaced the battery on the Norge about a week ago and it is about 1-1/2 years old. The battery would not keep a charge for very long and it was getting progressively worse so why take a risk getting stuck. Plus, I had an Odyssey battery sitting on the bench waiting for a new home.