Seattle Norge and questions

[SparkyMJ]

To follow up, I have since done a lot of work on the Norge, and finally got it out for a test ride today.

The tank vacuum issue was a kinked line, and previous owner got a little enthusiastic with 'plugging hoses', haha.

The bike had the erratic idle especially at cold start, and sometimes when cruising a low throttle, it could be felt that the bike would slightly surge and slow in power. Lots of exhaust popping on decel too. Figured I could at least clean out the air system and stepper first, as it's been well-documented. I also cleaned out and replaced a bunch of stuff while in there, and figured out why my handlebar lock wasn't working on the left side. Here is what I did to try and improve the running condition, or maintain as I saw fit:

- Replaced fuel hose. Mine was wearing thin from rubbing on stuff in some places.
- Replaced alternator belt.
- Replaced alternator sealed ball bearings. It sounded a tad squeaky when rotating the armature by hand, so I pressed in some new ones spec'd to work in these conditions, and it is buttery smooth now. Difficult install.
- Replaced a cracked/leaking right breather hose, and all breather hose clamps.
- Cleaned the inside and outside of the airbox, throttle valves, stepper motor, and intake ports in the heads. Loads of black grime from oil, luckily no dust/debris though. Can't believe it ran at all, there was so much. Throttle butterflies were partially black.
- Sealed the intake boots to the airbox.
- Replaced the O-rings in the throttle bodies where the plastic insert goes on the inlet.
- Replaced the O-rings that go in the breather outlet port that seal the timing port view.
- Replaced the Oil pressure sensor, old one seemed loose in its housing/falling apart.
- Repaired all instances of harness damage. Re-wrapping areas, repairing chaffed wires with exposed conductors, and re-routed the harness to improve reliability where needed. Found my ignition handlebar lock was not working due to the windscreen wires getting crushed by the lock mechanism, now resolved.
- Installed a momentary up/down toggle switch on the left controls for windscreen control. Vast improvement over the stock buttons, of which mine were getting sticky/stuck. Courtesy of recommendations from here on the forums!
- Cleaned the brake calipers, pistons, rotors, and installed some high performance Brembo brake pads front and rear. Greased the pins on the rear caliper as well. Front brake was woefully inadequate prior, and pads were real old and cheap ones.
- Brake system bleed, installed high-performance fluid. Improved lever feel in both brakes.
- Clutch bleed. Lots of air bubbles came out at first, so now clutch feel is much improved.
- Replaced grips to my favorite set. Heat still comes through nicely.
- Installed OEM bar end weights. Previous owner took them off, much smoother in the hands with em.
- Installed OEM mirrors. Previous owner had put lame bar-end "mirrors" on which were terrible. Factory mirrors are actually some of the nicest I've ever used, and they don't vibrate nearly at all, and the look is nice.
- Cleaned out the fuel pump screen, general tank internal inspection, no findings.
- Cleaned injectors.
- Replaced intake manifold gaskets.
- Reinstalled all the breather/drainage hoses with appropriate routing, plugs where needed, and new clamps.
- Installed OEM horn. Previous owner had ridiculous horns with terrible wiring.
- Replaced battery, for peace of mind. Factory style replacement.
- New air filter
- Oil/filter change, went with Motul 7100 since it has high/current specs.
- Gearbox oil change.
- CARC oil change.
- Full detail, degreasing of the engine, and cleaning everything I can get to.
- Rebuilt the fuel tank gas cap, removing gunk and cleaning seals.
- Removed all cheapy anodized hardware previous owner put on. Yuck.

Much of the info I found was indeed on the forums, so a thank you to all those before I who were able to provide info on here.

The bike runs quite well, but still has the same cold start erratic idle after the first ride. It fired up fine the first time or two, and then reverted to its old behavior. So perhaps the stepper wasn't really gunked up from the shop overfilling the oil when I bought it, but just how they are. Going to look into stepper motor deactivation methods for once the engine is hot. I will also likely soon do a valve clearance adjustment, as I didn't want to throw that in the mix yet for troubleshooting purposes. Still lots of exhaust popping. I blocked off the oil cooler for the test ride as well, since it was mid 30's today here, and my oil did had a little bit of milky goop in it when draining, so figured as much heat as I can get for the time being is good. Otherwise, rides very nice!

I do plan on taking the Norge out to the local race tracks this spring, so I've been scheming how I am going to afford the suspension bits over in the store. My local MG dealer finds it hilarious that I want to track the Norge, and also assured me I am the youngest Norge owner they've ever seen lol. I'd also like more brake performance, so I may throw on a sportbike-oriented master cylinder and some track-specific brake pads, and maybe some thicker rotors. Also would like to find a way to squeeze my tire warmers on there as well, so I'll have to find a stand option to get the tires in the air without the center stand or kickstand. See if I can make use of the lap timer built in as well! May also have to find a top-case for those days where the side-bags seem like a bit much, but a backpack doesn't cut it.

Thanks again folks for all the info provided on here, the resource has been very valuable, and my search skills have improved! Can't wait for the warmer weather, and to iron out the last kinks in the bike. Marvelous to ride, will probably kickoff my spring with many miles on the Norge.

-Mike

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Hello Mike,

One thing worth checking. Raven said his sensors were banged up like this too from the bung cutout not being removed just like this one.

Wish Us Luck!

Good morning! Well, I am beyond honored this morning. One of the members here, arrived from Greenville, SC yesterday late afternoon, to my workshop in Northwest Ohio. He drove over 600 miles on his journey, to bring his motorcycle to me. I am truly honored and humbled by this. He has had...

www.guzzitech.com

 

[SparkyMJ]

Ah, thank you for referring me to this thread, this may be worth checking on mine.

I read through, and the only thing I am not understanding is if there was anything else done after the erratic O2 sensor was replaced prior to the successful test ride? You mentioned that you changed out the damaged sensor, but still had the unusual loop mode operation, and then your next post was just that it runs perfectly. Did I miss something?

Thanks for the advice, I think I will pull them out to have a look just incase mine are also affected in this way.

-Mike

 

[scottmastrocinque]

I have a professional computer system from Italy that neither you nor anybody else here has. It’s a commercial Socio-300 which is no longer made. Further discussion was pointless and moot as nobody could do the same things.

I reset everything and then reactive it the next day. She has worked fine since that day.

I could never establish if my readings on the O2 sensor on the one side were normal or abnormal.

After the reset, everything was working and Jeremie and his Dad had to leave for home.

 

[Raven]

You mention a lot of work that you did on the intake side of things. Did you reset the TPS and sync the throttle bodies after all the work was done? If not, this will make a huge difference in how the bike functions.
Unless the lean fuelling issues of the Norge are addressed, it will continue to be erratic at low RPM. GTM tune and/or Power Commander is a game changer.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Yes, you need to perform a TPS reset. Do you have GTM’s tool?

I wrote this for the Stelvio but it’s really a 8V procedure as the engine is the same as yours.

It is impossible to do a TPS reset without the electronic tool.

Syncing Throttle Bodies- Stelvio 8V

thanks John. Maybe I can find someone with the equipment willing to help me do it here in Austin TX area. Ultimately I'll end up buying the gear. My bike has only 2800 miles so it go awhile just fine. Seems to vibrate like a Harley at idle, and remain a little rough until really smoothing...

www.guzzitech.com

 

[john zibell]

Well done on all you have accomplished. In addition pay attention to the swing arm and shock linkage. see https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/how-to-check-swingarm-and-linkage-bearings-on-ntx.9978/ It is written for the NTX, but you have the same suspension system. Be sure to support the engine with a jack when you remove the pork chops. Those are the panels with your foot pegs.

 

[SparkyMJ]

Thank you for the feedback fellas.

I have not done the sync or TPS reset yet, that is on my list to do next. I wanted to seal up all the leaks and worn bits before doing that to ensure the best sync and proper adjustment, and I will probably end up doing the valve clearances before syncing as well. I have read up the process of the sync, thank you for referencing that thread again. I don't have the GTM tool yet, that is also on the shopping list. I want to do the stepper block-off valve modification as well, but it seems the consensus on whether to sync the throttle bodies with it blocked off or open (normal) isn't clear cut either. Some folks reported blocking it during the sync made the readings extremely stable and easy to dial in, while others countered saying it is better to sync the TB's like how you might normally operate the engine (with the stepper active/open). If I do the stepper block-off valve, my inclination is to sync them with it closed/blocked, to get a stable idle with no external interference, and I'd have the valve closed 95% of the time I'd be riding, with a warm engine, so I wouldn't really care if it's slightly out of balance in a cold start for a few minutes. Although I also hear the 8V motor is very over-cooled, so maybe I would use the stepper motor more than I think, living in a cooler climate. Or if adjusting the fueling all together would make the erratic cold starts go away, that would be even better. Any lessons learned there that were not outlined in the older threads discussing these mods?

I haven't historically liked the idea of using a power commander just due to the extra complexity, but improving the fueling would be wonderful. The mid-RPM drop in power (I assume) for fuel economy is very noticeable. I've always just had my ECU's flashed and dyno tuned though, but my local shop said as well that they would probably only be able to do a PC or similar piggyback fuel adjuster for the Norge. Is the GTM tune you mentioned the ECU flash offered with the purchase of the 5AM/7SM flash tool? I'd like it if the fuel economy numbers were kept accurate on the dash after a fueling change, but not a deal-breaker. I'd assume the fuel economy info would remain accurate with an ECU flash though, and I would be happy with the reduced parts count of an ECU flash. I'd also like to maintain the O2 sensor operation, if applicable.

Indeed I haven't removed any suspension components yet either, just cleaned and visually inspected at this point. I did find the swingarm boot mating it to the gearbox output shaft had a crack in the rubber, so I've also ordered up a new boot for when I do get into that. I plan on checking and greasing those pivot bearings, as well as the rear shock pivot block ones. Thank you for linking that post, I had seen it once long ago but it is good to have it noted here. That will really feel good having done.

I am strongly considering one of the rear shock upgrades from the store, as well as the fork cartridge kit, so I will definitely end up pulling it all off sometime this spring, and getting it all done right with the upgrades.

The main thing I have been struggling with while working on the Norge has been jacking the bike up. Mine came with no center stand, for what that is worth. I've done many odd maneuvers to get the bike in the air or positioned where I'd like for the work I've already done, and I don't have a table lift. In my research it appears there was some very short-run lifts/stands/jacks made for this and similar Guzzis, but they seem to be no longer made or available. As it stands, I currently don't have a way to remove both wheels at once to do a tire change yet. I think I will probably pick up a center stand at least to use around the garage, but it seems in the forums that everyone has their own different way to lift the CARC bikes. Any suggestions that are currently available or can easily be fabricated? As funny as it sounds, I do want to be able to put tire warmers on the Norge at the race track, and I need the center stand off for lean clearance. If I can figure out a good set of stands, I might also take the kickstand off for track days too.

Thanks for the input, I look forward to getting the rest of the bike dialed in this Spring with your generous advice.

-Mike

 

[john zibell]

The question about the flash tool should be asked using the contact tab in the Store. Also use the contact tab to inquire about a center stand. Factory center stands should still be available, but probably not stocked by a dealer.

 

[GTM®]

I haven't historically liked the idea of using a power commander just due to the extra complexity, but improving the fueling would be wonderful. The mid-RPM drop in power (I assume) for fuel economy is very noticeable.

This website is a searchable resource, unlike social media channels. In the time that it took you to write those first two paragraphs, you'd have found the info linked below. That should clarify all of your questions. Again, search and read a little here. You'll be surprised of how much info is here, posted by Professionals. My resume is HERE, feel free to post yours.

GTM Fueling Info

A fact to start: No stock Guzzi ECU/F.I. system is fully adaptive, nor can 99% of the dealers do anything to help as they are mostly factory map/warranty restricted. If you modified your bike, it will NOT adapt. Even completely stock, fuel mapping is set up for emissions, not the health and...

www.guzzitech.com

Not directed at you... I can see how people who have done this long enough get so frustrated and bitter. I have been using PC's since 2001 with never an issue personally, and through my hard work and determination, they were made available for Guzzis. Brilliant piece of hardware when someone knowledgeable uses them.
I got an email from Dynojet last week that most are being discontinued now. Grab one while they last.

I am strongly considering one of the rear shock upgrades from the store, as well as the fork cartridge kit, so I will definitely end up pulling it all off sometime this spring, and getting it all done right with the upgrades.

The Breva/Norge/Sport have had the weakest/softest suspension of all of the CARC models. To me it is downright dangerous for anyone living on the spirited side of riding. Plenty of good options on the GTM STORE

If I can figure out a good set of stands, I might also take the kickstand off for track days too.

Best of luck to you. A front wheel chock is best bet. If you discover a solution, let us know. Not many options for the CARC swingarm bikes.

 

[SparkyMJ]

Thank you for the link to the fueling info, and heads up about the Dynojet discontinue. I will read the related info and make a decision.

I apologize, I have spent many hours searching this site for anything that could be helpful in my case, but I am no researcher. I have found many resources on this site that I did not notice the first 20 times I visited, since I am unfamiliar with the layout of this forum, and trying to familiarize myself with the resources and past threads. Some of the linked items are things I have already found and read to the end, and some of them are things I had not yet seen. Not trying to cause bitterness, I just don't know what I don't know yet in regards to some of the treasure troves of resources on here, and I do really appreciate being linked to things I may not have seen yet. My apologies.

-Mike

 

[GTM®]

No apologies needed. Perfectly fine to ask questions once you've exhausted the search feature and read up. Just again know many here have been at this a long time, and making purely opinionated statements that are false, will get called out quickly here. You didn't post your resume or experience. Be sure to read the scrolling paragraphs at the top of every page, and click on the (GTM) STORE link and sort by model for things we've developed, use and endorse.
Enjoy, and be sure to see the thread below also. It remains as a highlighted thread in this section. Enjoy.

GTM Airbox lid with Dyno runs

Dyno graph below shows the 1151cc 2V engine; Stock (blue lines) vs GTM Full Kit: Air box lid w/HF filter, Free-flow muffler (red lines) : +15 rwhp & 22 ft.lbs. @3650 RPM once corrected with our ECU update and Power Commander/AutoTune found on our online Store HERE...

www.guzzitech.com

 

[SparkyMJ]

Understood, thank you. It seems there is always a new stone I've yet to overturn every time I explore the site and resources some more.

I am far from a motorcycle expert, and really dove into Guzzi stuff quite recently, so indeed I certainly do have some opinions and notions that may be misinformed, and that is why I am here to be open to new ideas and learn more.

Todd, your resume is very impressive, a great read. Sounds like lots of years spent enjoying what you do, and a whole lot has come from it.

For what it's worth, I have a degree in unmanned aircraft systems, with particular focus on aircraft control loops, electronic flight hardware, and battery systems/chargers. I have also spent about 10 years in my past as a sponsored race pilot in hobby-grade First Person View drones, providing R&D and pilot feedback on hardware, aircraft chassis designs, and even had a chassis designed and built under my name through a sponsoring company to be sold publicly. At my peak, I was top 10 in the US, and had a few world-record lap times on spec courses.

I also worked at a startup company as the Senior Aircraft Systems Technician, in which I would build, maintain, modify, and analyze failure modes on in-house custom heavy lift aerial platforms designed to plant saplings. Of course I also worked with the company who provided the custom outfitted trucks designed to charge hundreds of flight batteries. I also designed the first maintenance and inspection criteria for lithium based flight batteries for this particular startup company, promoting an even higher degree of safety and reliability in our powertrains. I was also the key author in writing all of the maintenance procedures and documents we needed to get approved by the FAA to legally operate. In my time working there, I also became the POC for wire harness construction and implementation, and have an IPC certificate in soldering.

I also spent a few years as an apprentice auto mechanic prior to school, and now I work at an aerospace company as a technician specializing in repair and overhaul for mechanical fuel-flow transmitters. We do everything from small piston engine meters all the way up to large commercial turbine engine meters. This work combines a deep understanding of mechanical assemblies, general fluid dynamics, data analysis, automated test equipment, and documenting/quoting customers. Great fun really, feels like stepping into a space-grade laboratory to fine tune the inner workings of the meters.

And somewhere along the way I fell in love with motorcycles, track and street riding, and learning to wrench on more and more bikes. I've worked on bikes enough to repair anything with a shop manual and the right tools, and I've designed and 3D printed some of my own parts and tools for my motorcycles. Had a few wrecks and injuries on and off the racetrack in my course to self-betterment and broadening my horizons in riding.

Mind you, I am only 25, so I still have much learning to do in life, and one aspect I intend to learn much more about is my Moto Guzzi motorcycle, among many other things. As much as I grew up in the information age, one thing I am woefully inadequate at using is consumer-grade computer software, as backwards as it may seem.

I hope that helps put my experience in perspective and why I would think certain things. I in no way intend to impose my opinions over someone else on here. I have stumbled upon a lifetime's knowledge on all things Moto Guzzi here on the forums, so I will take the time to try and leave no rock unturned. I do really appreciate this resource, and what great things have come from it, I've just yet to find every book in the library that might pertain to my interests.

Now if only I had some good riding weather up here!

-Mike

 

[Raven]

That's very impressive for a man of 25. You may also be one of the youngest Norge riders in the world. I would think the average age is 60+.

 

[SparkyMJ]

Thank you for the kind words!

I feel very lucky to at least have a MG dealer in my area, the only one in the state actually. Handful of reputable smart guys, and they host many of the track days I attend too.

Funny you say that though, they said the same thing when I told them what I have and why I was there. They already knew who I was from the track day events, and they were very excited to hear I wanted to turn some laps on the Norge.

I may be younger, but things like good ergonomics and wind protection are so enjoyable. I've mostly ridden and owned sportier motorcycles over the years, but I sat on the Norge and took a test-ride on it and instantly felt comfy and at home, and I absolutely love the engine character.

-Mike

 

[Vagrant]

Next you should start designing windshields! Most bike shields suck!

 

[GTM®]

Mind you, I am only 25, so I still have much learning to do in life, and one aspect I intend to learn much more about is my Moto Guzzi motorcycle, among many other things. As much as I grew up in the information age, one thing I am woefully inadequate at using is consumer-grade computer software, as backwards as it may seem.

And this is why I ask. You are a decade plus late to be in the back yard of one of the best dealers in the U.S.: Moto International and Dave Richardson. Google those words.
You sound like me. Kudos. So for some perspective, I launched this website when you were ~3 years old, and bought my first Guzzi when you were ~1. By the time I hit your age, I had one million street miles under my belt and was launching my second pro racing career. My resume only glazes over my high points in my motorcycling life. I started making Guzzi-focused products in 2001, and I've been fortunate to have a full time business around this brand for about a decade now, and built my own Guzzi-powered brand to sell (see them on my GTM BUILDS website). I bring all of this here to share with the community.
I appreciate your note on the modern info age. As a Gen-X'er, I grew up in it, buying my first personal computer in 1991. I had been exposed to computers in elementary school, and was the single person selected to use and see if AutoCAD might be a good fit for kids my age in high school. I gave it a go, and it landed in every classroom in the county I grew up in the year after I graduated.
All said, I love having you here. Please be sure to search and read on the topics you wish to post on. Happy to give you guidance. Know that if has anything to do with Guzzis in the last 20 years, you'll likely find it here on a factual level. not opinions like you'll find on most all social media channels. I work hard to keep info relevant here. Enjoy and see you here often.

 

[SparkyMJ]

I've heard of Moto International, and see many people reference them online. My dealer said they got a lot of their inventory when they closed their doors, and my Norge was in fact purchased there in 2012. I even got a few maintenance records from MI when I bought the bike. Small world, I may have to buy some of Dave's books and read up.

Born too late for a lot of the stuff and communities I find the most joy in, but early enough to steer clear of social media echo chambers. Most of my buddies in the hobbies I have done were twice my age, and most (but not all) people my age don't want to put in any time or effort into anything anymore, so I'm the weird one for wrenching in the garage! Haha.

-Mike

 

[scottmastrocinque]

You may also be one of the youngest Norge riders in the world. I would think the average age is 60+.