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V7 II ENGINE FAILURES & CLUTCH ADJUST NOTICE!

Discussion in 'V7/V85/V9 Chat & Tech' started by GTM®, May 21, 2016.

  1. Midnite

    Midnite Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Trying to figure out if my bike is failing due to missing crank thrust bearings. Looks like I'm solidly in the range for the failure described in this thread...

    2016 V7ii stone
    VIN ZGULWUB04GM200525
    Engine # 017215

    At around 10,000 miles, I started hearing a new, intermittent light grinding sound - like something was rubbing in the clutch assembly - that occurred when the clutch was pulled in, but in a gear (most often 2nd). At 10,250, I was riding home from work, and the clutch lost adjustment on the freeway - free play in the cable extended to about 1/2 of the total clutch pull. I had to shift gears without the clutch until I was able to pull over. I stopped, and was able to readjust it at the perch (2mm free play), and it seemed to be fine. The clutch had held adjustment from 0 miles up until that point (I'm the original owner), so I was hoping it was just a freak occurrence.

    Hoping I wasn't affected by the clutch failure since I was 10K in, I rode the ol' girl to work today, and right before I pulled off of the freeway (20 mile ride), the engine died when in gear with the clutch pulled. I was able to start it again, and limp it most of the way to work before it died and wouldn't start. The bike died another four times on the way. When in gear during this last stretch, the grinding sound/sensation seemed to intensify when the clutch lever was pulled.

    The clutch adjustment seems to be spot on at the perch, and the photo below shows the back adjuster. The starter still cranks, but the engine won't fire. All services have been done before they were due, and I've had no problems with the bike up until now. Of course, I'm beyond warranty at this point.

    What do you all think? Does it sound like I have the missing bearings clutch failure described here?
    I'm trying to figure out if I should haul it into a dealer to see if they can file a claim.

    Many thanks to the collective!

    Matt
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020
  2. Midnite

    Midnite Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Quick update: was able to get it home (died once along the way - clutch pulled in, in 1st gear), but the clutch freeplay slack increased slightly at the lever. I was able to tighten it back up to the 2mm spec, and there appears to be at least 1/3" of adjustment left at the lever. Any thoughts as to whether my bike might be missing bearings? Something else? Seems like this (10K) is fairly high mileage for the problem to surface...

     
  3. GuzziMoto

    GuzziMoto GT Reference GT Contributor

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    Is the engine dying because the clutch is dragging? Otherwise I am not sure how a failing clutch would cause the engine to die.
    If your clutch freeplay is literally changing before your eyes, that does seem to indicate an issue with the clutch mechanism.
     
  4. Midnite

    Midnite Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Thanks, GuzziMoto. It's possible that the engine dying is due to the clutch dragging: not entirely sure. I'm not getting a check engine light, but still need to check to see if it's throwing any codes. The clutch freeplay did noticeably change in the 40 miles of riding I did yesterday. I've taken measurements of the protruding cable behind the engine to see if that changes as well.

    Is anyone aware of a clutch failure due to omission of the parts described in this thread beyond 10k miles? As far as I can tell, the problem has typically manifested well before this mark. I'm just spooked because my VIN/engine seem to be smack in the middle of those with reported problems. My closest dealer has a terrible reputation (Eurocycle Sonoma), and the next closest one is mediocre at best (Munroe Motors), so I'm not eager to drag the bike in if I don't have to.
     
  5. Godfrey

    Godfrey High Miler GT Famiglia

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    Midnite:

    If you continue to have problems, I'd call over to California Speed Sports in Livermore and ask if they're still servicing Moto Guzzis. I don't think they're carrying Moto Guzzi for sale any more (I don't see them listed on the website), but if they're still servicing them the mechanic there is excellent.
     
  6. Midnite

    Midnite Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Many thanks for the recommendation, Godfrey. I'll look into California Speed Sports.
     
  7. Midnite

    Midnite Tuned and Synch'ed

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    A quick update and a question for the collective:

    My clutch has continued to need adjustment as the miles have steadily inched up over 11,000 (becomes impossible to find neutral, and emits a grinding/whining sound when in gear with the clutch pulled in - which I avoid). After reaching the end of adjustment at the clutch perch, I decided to dig into the rear adjuster to see if winding it in a bit would help. I was able to advance the screw on the clutch rod about 1/4 turn before it met resistance, so locked it in place and gained a few mm of adjustment at the perch, which should hold me for a bit. When down there, I took a good look at the end of the clutch rod, and found that it was visibly recessed (sitting a few mm behind the engine casing), which I gather is indicative of wearing of the clutch rod assembly. So, I'm looking at purchasing a clutch pushrod kit and shelling out to have my local Guzzi mechanic replace it. I'd bring it into GTM if I was closer...

    Does this sound like an accurate assessment of the problem, and how many shop hours would you guess I'm looking at?
     
  8. GuzziMoto

    GuzziMoto GT Reference GT Contributor

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    It sounds like your bike has the issue of the missing thrust bearing as covered in this thread.
    It clearly has something wrong and replacing some of the failing parts without correcting the source of the failure would simply lead to another failure.
    I am not a V7 expect like others here. But clearly there is something causing your clutch adjustment issues and it seems like it would be a lack of a clutch thrust bearing in the clutch system. That should be covered as an extended warranty if that is what it is, as that is a manufacturing defect.
     
  9. GTM®

    GTM® Administrator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    I would have the mechanic test for the thrust bearing noted in the first post as Michael above stated too. Throwout bearing replacement is 2.5~3.5 hours + parts depending, but if you have an expired motor, it would be a waste of time and $.
     
  10. Midnite

    Midnite Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Thanks, gents. Will do. I’ve been hoping, naively perhaps, that the thrust bearing issue isn’t the case. If it is, should Piaggio cover engine replacement even though it’s well beyond the 2-year initial warranty period? I have a local mechanic that I trust, and a semi-local dealer (Munroe in San Francisco) that should be able to do the warranty work. If you were me, would you have a local mechanic check out the issue, then take it to the dealer if warranted, or just take it to the dealer? I'm partially concerned about being on the hook to cover the dealer fees if they find that it's not a warranty issue (and the pain in the ass of an hour ride each way).
     
  11. Midnite

    Midnite Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Alright. I’m biting the bullet and taking it into the dealer, which is about 30 miles of freeway and 15 miles of stop and go traffic away. I’m at the absolute end of clutch adjustment, but the bike is still functional. Given the possible missing washer situation, I’m wondering if the bike is safe to ride. I can have it towed easily enough, but prefer to ride it to the shop. Visions of a seized engine at 70 mph keep running through my head... Safe to ride?
     
  12. GTM®

    GTM® Administrator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    If you have the option to tow, that would be wise as if the bearing is missing, they won't let you leave with it. Regardless, I think they will want you to leave it anyway. You should call and ask.
     
    Midnite likes this.
  13. Midnite

    Midnite Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Where to begin...

    I scheduled an appointment at Munroe Motors in San Francisco to have the end-float checked out as noted in the beginning of this thread. Before I had it towed down, I decided to take it out for one last short spin: got about 200 feet from my driveway, and the engine seized, which seemed to to me to be confirmation of the problem described in this thread.

    The dealership just got back to me today after having the bike for a few days. The service manager told me that they measured crank end-float, and that it is within spec., which I was surprised to hear. He confirmed that the engine is seized (took out the spark plugs, kicked it into high gear and it wouldn't turn), but told me that the transmission does turn, so he thinks that it is an engine problem completely unrelated to the clutch / push-rod. He also said that they dropped the oil, and didn't see any metal. I asked him what he thought about the fact that the clutch has consistently lost adjustment, is wound all the way out at the perch, and still has more than the recommended 2mm of free play. His response was that this was fine, and that he'd recommend that I get a new clutch cable. When I explained that the symptoms I'm experiencing seem consistent with other V7ii Stone engines that have failed (with VINs before and after mine), he told me that they didn't have any basis to contact Piaggio because end-float was within spec, and my bike's out of warranty. He told me that I'd have to contact Piaggio myself to see if they'd do anything.

    At $178/hr, he asked if I'd approve of them tearing apart the cylinders to determine the nature of the engine damage. Needless to say, I'm not keen on paying for several more hours worth of labor at that rate (luckily, I"m only an hour in so far).

    What would you all recommend? It seems that my bike is exhibiting all of the symptoms as the affected bikes listed in the beginning of this thread: clutch at end of adjustment, eventual seized engine at just over 11,000 miles. My VIN is ...200525, and there are failed V7ii Stones with VINs 200499 and 200548. Should I contact Piaggio directly? Am I completely effed? Bummer: I'm very invested in my V7, and love it. Seems like an EXCEPTIONALLY short life for a Guzzi engine.

    On the upside, I took my Griso out for an incredible 100 mile jaunt out to the Sonoma coast today...

    Cheers, All.

    Matt
     
  14. GTM®

    GTM® Administrator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Yes you should. Tell them the motor seized while you were riding it, and let them know how dangerous that was for you. Once the motor has seized, the end float measurement is worthless. Have them send the oil out for analysis if they can’t see anything. No way there’s nothing in the oil. IF you OK them to pull the engine apart, you’ll want them to show you the shim bearing was in place. I don’t know of any Guzzi that seized unless ran super low on oil or the bearing talked about here was omitted.
     
  15. vagrant

    vagrant GT Reference

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    I'd be ready to show you changed the oil & filter according to the book. if you did it yourself receipts for the purchases would help.
    Be nice but firm.
    Todd can the shim bee seen with the oil pan or cylinder off? it shouldn't take a hour to do either.
     
  16. GTM®

    GTM® Administrator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    No. The small block requires the cases to be split to get any access to the crank. The oil pan cavity is sealed under the crank. Opposite the big blocks.

    101336AE-B211-44D2-8683-117DC7C901E4.jpeg
     
  17. Midnite

    Midnite Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Thanks, Todd and Vagrant. Trying to plot my next move. I’m not keen on taking the risk of being on the hook for labor if they split the case. Do you think there’s enough evidence for me to contact Piaggio directly? I’ll continue to try to compel the dealer to do so, but am not confident that they will. BTW: all services done by the book, though I did change fluids myself. I checked the oil after the next to last ride, and it was just above the bottom hashmark. The dealer told me that the tech thought the oil was VERY low, but I’m guessing this is just them checking it cold, and not realizing that it can appear alarmingly low if checked cold.

    I’ll take another crack at the dealer today, but am wondering if I should go ahead and reach out to Piaggio too...
     
  18. GTM®

    GTM® Administrator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Welcome, and already answered that a few posts above.
     
  19. vagrant

    vagrant GT Reference

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    right off the bat if he doesn't know the oil needs to low cold he doesn't know small blocks. call Piaggio and ask for a rep to come and inspect it. personally I would follow up with a certified letter or at least an email to start.
     
  20. Midnite

    Midnite Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Thanks. I’ll have them do the oil analysis to start.
     

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