• Ciao Guest - You’ve landed at the ultimate Guzzi site. NEW FORUM REGISTRATIONS REQUIRE EMAIL ACTIVATION - CHECK YOUR SPAM FOLDER - Use the CONTACT above if you need help. New to the forum? For all new members, we require ONE post in the Introductions section at the bottom, in order to post in most of the other sections. ALWAYS TRY A SEARCH BEFORE STARTING A NEW TOPIC - Most questions you may have, have likely been already answered. DON'T BE A DRIVE-BY POSTER: As a common courtesy, check back in and reply within 24 hours, or your post will be deleted. Note there's decades of heavily experienced Guzzi professionals on this site, all whom happily give endless amounts of their VALUABLE time for free; BE COURTEOUS AND RESPECTFUL!
  • There is ZERO tolerance on personal attacks and ANY HYPERLINKS to PRODUCT(S) or other competing website(s), including personal pages, social media or other Forums. This ALSO INCLUDES ECU DIAGnostic software, questions and mapping. We work very hard to offer commercially supported products and to keep info relevant here. First offense is a note, second is a warning, third time will get you banned from the site. We don't have the time to chase repeat (and ignorant) offenders. This is NOT a social media platform; It's an ad-free, privately funded website, in small help with user donations. Be sure to see the GTM STORE link above; ALL product purchases help support the site, or you can upgrade your Forum profile or DONATE via the link above.
  • Be sure to see the GTM STORE link also above for our 700+ product inventory, including OEM parts and many of our 100% Made-in-SoCal-USA GTM products and engine kits. In SoCal? Click the SERVICE tab above for the best in service, tires, tuning and installation of our products or custom work, and don't miss our GT MotoCycles® (not) art on the BUILDS tab above. WE'RE HERE ONLINE ONLY - NO PHONE CALLS MADE OR RECEIVED - DO NOT EMAIL AND ASK QUESTIONS OR ASK TO CALL YOU.
  • Like the new V100, GuzziTech is full throttle into the future! We're now running on an all-new server and we've updated our Forum software. The visual differences are obvious, but hopefully you'll notice the super-fast speed. If you notice any glitches or have any issues, please post on the Site Support section at the bottom. If you haven't yet, please upgrade your account which is covered in the Site Support section or via the DONATE tab above, which gives you full site access including the DOWNLOADS section. We really appreciate every $ and your support to keep this site ad-free. Create an account, sign in, upgrade your account, and enjoy. See you on the road in 2024.

Why you should NOT put mineral oil in your 8V.

Penis Rotor

GT Godfather!
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
2,833
Location
Bungendore, NSW Australia
OK, so I've got a warranty job coming in . A bloke with an 8V Griso with a pinhole pourosity in the head casting so it's a new head for him. This actually arrived within a fortnight, I was very impressed. while I had a new, clean, head in my grubby little mits I tought it would be a good time to have a squizz at it and find out what's what.

Now we know from the publicity blurb that the engine is Air/Oil cooled and has two oil pumps, one for lubrication and one for cooling. Certainly when the motor is running large amounts of oil gush out of the camboxes and rockers and flow down overe the head to cool it. Run an 8V with the rocker cover off and you'll be drenched in oil in seconds! :D

Having the head off the bike and clean though allows you to see some other much more important things.

4350421764_32b6ee4728_o.jpg


As you can see there is a gallery drilled through the casing by the exhaust valves. There is another one that comes in from the port side of the valves as well.

4350421774_2f73cfeb3f_o.jpg


Here you can see the two plugged drillings in the casting for the lower gallery in the bottom LH corner of the pic.

4350421768_07cc086218_o.jpg


You can see here the boss the gallery is drilled through in the casting.

4350424356_21e306955c_o.jpg


Looking at the underside, (Combustion side.) of the head you can see on the exhaust side, (Bottom of the picture.) the two drillings, presumably one a delivery and one a return, in the head. They are the two smaller holes adjacent to the stud holes. The longer slots are part of the oil return for the lubricant that gets flung around and pumped out of the cam boxes/rocker gear above the head.

4350421778_7918f35cf8_o.jpg


Another pic looking at the exhaust port showing the second drilling for the cooling oil feed.

4350424360_cf991b8a1c_o.jpg


Looking at the valley side of the head you can see the lubrication oil feed. That is the hole at the front of the head in line with the exhaust stud. This feeds oil into the upper forward stud hole.

4350424356_21e306955c_o.jpg


bottom right in this pic, where it is fed up the stud and into the cam bearings in the cam box.

4350421770_14a6dbf1ef_o.jpg


as you can see from the pic that stud is doweled to the barrel to ensure that there is room for the oil to flow up to the bearings through the stud hole when the stud is centralised by the cam box casting.

The important thing here though is that the exhaust valve seats and the head immediately surrounding them is being cooled by a high volume of oil that will be being pumped through the galleries surrounding the seats. The temperatures in tat area are going to be the highest in the motor and using an inferior oil is going to lead to all sorts of horrible varnishes and deposits building up in those, quite small, galleries. when the factory recommends a very expensive, high quality full ester synthetic for the 8V it's not so much for the tappets, (Although protection there is a bonus.) it is because of the oil's ability not to degrade at much higher temperatures than a 'Free Grandfather Clock with Every 4 Quarts' mineral oil from Wallyworld.

Ignore the spec at your peril, and yes, any half way decent mechanic will be able to see the deposits and know what they are if the galleries do clog up and you drop the head off a valve. (BFG. This is particularly relevant to you as the 'tard who has been working on your bike has been swearing by Yak Fat. I'd drop it out yesterday, if not sooner, and put something better in!!!!) If I got one in with that sort of problem I'd be sending an oil sample off for analysis and if it wasn't the 'Good Oil'? Bye-Bye warranty!

Pete
 
Great post Pete, and very sound advice to use the specified oil.

What do you think about using a flushing agent if someone has used mineral oil unwisely?
 
Great post Pete, and very sound advice to use the specified oil.

What do you think about using a flushing agent if someone has used mineral oil unwisely?
 
Thanks Pete for shareing your technical observation on this topic, very very interesting. Helps us all.
 
GrahamNZ said:
What do you think about using a flushing agent if someone has used mineral oil unwisely?

Oh I'm sure you could strip the muck out using some sort of toxic solvent bath but it'd take the paint off too. I don't think it's something you'd have to worry about *immediately* unless you didn't change your oil very often but since the specified interval is 10,000Km, (And my oil would never stay in an engine like this that long!) if it was a crap oil it is quite likely that deposits would start to form.

Pete
 
Some cool pictures.

While it's not exactly relevant to the post title, i think it's nice to see a modern combustion chamber on a guzzi. Lots of squish, very flat, fast burning. i just wish my 2v had that. :-/
 
A flushing agent shouldn't be necessary. In an engine that's drained when hot genuine synthetics will clean up vestiges of mineral oil.

Peter
 
Excuse me failing to add anything knowledgeable to this thread, but I've got to say it's great to see real technical information like this is a motorcycle forum. You know, actual detail and explanation, rather than opinion! Somehow I don't think it's a co-incidence it's a Moto Guzzi forum..?

Personally I can't follow all this in detail, but it's still good to see, because it tells me (a) this fellow knows what he's talking about, and (b) if I ever get an 8V, I should do what he tells me :)
 
Very informative post. Just curious, what would you say about using a high-quality semi-synthetic oil (Motul for example) in an 8V motor?

Bruce
 
As I said to a mate of mine in the UK who asked the same question because his 'Dealer' insists on puting a 10/40 semi-synth in his 8V. The factory specifies a 10/60 full ester synth. It has to run through galleries that pass adjacent to the exhaust valve seats and exhaust ports, the only way an exhaust valve can dump heat is through the seat and the valve guide and when the exhaust gasses exit the combustion chamber they will be in excess of 1000*C if the mixture is as lean as it is on the new bikes. In service the necks of your exhaust valves will be glowing dull red, there is a LOT of heat in that area and the oil's job is to transport it away! A full ester synthetic's greatest advantage over a mineral oil, or even a synthetic fortified oil, is its ability to withstand absurd amounts of heat without degrading.

People are welcome to put any old Yak Fat they like in their 8V motors but I put two and two together and don't get five. If someone who does get five by doing that brings his 8V to me with an exhaust valve head stuck in the top of the piston I'm afraid he'll probably get very short shrift :D .

The brand of oil is unimportant, what is important is its ability to handle the heat. FWIW I use Penrite SIN 10 in mine a full ester 10/70 that exceeds all the specs for just about everything apart from the space shuttle. So far my bike remains obstinately cool and reliable :lol:

Pete
 
Thanks, Pete. Makes sense to me. I only have 860 km. on my new Stelvio, so when the snow finally melts and the road salt and sand is finally washed away, I will make sure my dealer uses full syn when I have the 1500 km. service done.

Cheers,

Bruce
 
Thanks for the information. I heard of one dealer putting in 15/50 synth. I currently use Agip 10/60, but it's very expensive and hard to find. I contacted castrol who informed me that their 10/60 Edge synthetic was suitable, thats a lot cheaper and easier to find than the Agip. I have sourced another oil which I wonder whether it is suitable, but it's a 20/60 synthetic, the spec is JASO MA (I know that doesn't matter to a Guzzi because of the dry clutch) API SJ. The company, Rock Oil state that it is suitable for engines with roller bearing crankshafts, and V Twin engines, used in arduous or racing conditions. Would the 20wt part be too heavy/thick for cold start ups, even if the bike was only used from spring to Autumn? I suspect I may be able to get this oil cheaper than the Castrol.
 
Choice of oil is a touchy subject, but I personally pay more attention to the specs and standards that the oil meets then whether it is full synthetic or semi-synthetic. There are semi-synthetics out there that are better suited to my Guzzi then some full synthetics. Being a "full synthetic" doesn't mean sh!t if it is low quality or not suitable for my application. To base your choice of oil solely on whether it is full synthetic or not might make you feel better but your Guzzi may not care.
 
fatal said:
Thanks for the information. I heard of one dealer putting in 15/50 synth. I currently use Agip 10/60, but it's very expensive and hard to find. I contacted castrol who informed me that their 10/60 Edge synthetic was suitable, thats a lot cheaper and easier to find than the Agip. I have sourced another oil which I wonder whether it is suitable, but it's a 20/60 synthetic, the spec is JASO MA (I know that doesn't matter to a Guzzi because of the dry clutch) API SJ. The company, Rock Oil state that it is suitable for engines with roller bearing crankshafts, and V Twin engines, used in arduous or racing conditions. Would the 20wt part be too heavy/thick for cold start ups, even if the bike was only used from spring to Autumn? I suspect I may be able to get this oil cheaper than the Castrol.

Fatal

I got Castrol Edge Sport 10W60 when I needed to top-up and it was the only 10W60 to hand. Spec = Fully synthetic (with di-ester booster) API SM/CF, ACEA A3/B3, A3/B4.

I've only put 250ml or so no conclusions

I've also just found Millers do a fully synthetic 10W60 (detailed specs at http://www.millersoils.net/1_Millers_fr ... awards.htm). I've read Millers own test results in the past and used their quality diesel specific oils (no not in Guzzis :woohoo: ).. I've ordered the 10W60 and plan an oil change when it arrives. B1100 is currently without its exhaust and awaiting me fitting Todds PCV, and a K&N so it could be a few weeks before i get chance to do the change and start putting it to the test.

Art
 
Pete!!

You just


started


an





O I L T H R E A D ! !



:silly: :mrgreen:

Fatal: after what Pete showed about the tiny oil conducts, I'd be a bit suspicious about the initial flow through them on a cold engine, using 20W spec oil. Of course, if said conducts are mostly for heat drainage, then the issue is probably moot: once things heat up enough up there to require oil cooling, the oil will probably be on working temperature.

But I may be wrong...
 
Damn Pete, I'm glad your Scura is not one of the newer CARC'd guzzi's, I've been running a combo of olive oil and left over bacon fat in you scura, so far so good, and the exhaust smells tasty...... Not to mess with you, but if I'm expected to keep the battery charged, thrash the sucker, add gas when its empty, ride it like its my own bike, you can't really expect me to pony up for real oil. I did however use what was left of that .79 cent oil you left when you rode your vert out here a few years ago. and I do try to use the oil that I drain from my other bikes in it where possible, I mean oil donts wear out does it???? fork oil is oil right? I'm getting ready to flush the brake systems on "my" guzzi's, does brake fluid count as oil? If so, I can save you a few bucks...
As always, its been a pleasure taking care of your scura, I look forward to helping you with your 8V griso.... I mean, I have a proven track record.... :twisted:
 
I have read in a couple of technical journals some time ago that viscosity improvers are only effective for about 30 points maximum, eg. Say 10W40 or 20W50. Personally, I have been using 15W50 Mobil 1 full synthetic in my Tuono V4. So my thoughts are that 10W60 and 10W70 oil's viscosity never gets over about 40 when super hot. I am no oil expert, but do read a lot and wonder if those oils claiming VI of 60 or 70 from a base of 10 are realistic. I would like to hear the opinions of others. BTW, my '73 750GT Ducati recommended 50 weight oil and old Harleys 60weight. Don't try to start them in winter!
 
Back
Top