Whoops you must have misread. Fuel pump does start fine, during bootup and when I crank. See #10 and #20 above. Voltage on the output of AUX relay is fine.
DZ
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2006 Breva 1100 Schematic
- Thread starterDon Zobel
- Start date
DZ
OK, so I mis-read. What I hate is I'm seeing a shotgun approach to this. Nothing taken in a logical order. Please read this thread and troubleshoot accordingly. https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/troubleshooting-circuits.3001/
Boy, that's pretty basic stuff, and obvious. Thought I've been pretty systematic. Trying to find where power isn't getting to something and if not, why? As it turns out, I was an electrical engineer, for thirty years in IC design.
Dealer had a good suggestion, which in effect, was similar to another suggestion here. Although he didn't say it, maybe the kill switch is defective. That could cause all of the above. Kiwi Dave, I believe, suggested checking to make sure power is getting to the coils. I assumed, because the AUX relay output was high, coil power should be there, but seems like Kill Switch could make this not happen. My schematic says the AUX relay output is the same wire as coil power wire. I'd assumed the kill switch only was associated with ECU inputs, but now wondering if maybe it directly disables power coming out of the AUX relay? In series with it to the coils.
Always hard when one doesn't have a valid schematic. As affore mentioned, the Kill Switch and Start button aren't on my schematic and wire color codes aren't totally correct, and can't seem to find a valid schematic.
Odd thing is, why did the #D fuse blow? All symptoms started after this. Solenoids can sometimes have a hold coil, which is higher impedance and a higher current coil, to cause it to move. Because the Guzzi has inadequate wiring, from the starter relay to solenoid, when it applies power to solenoid, but not enough to move it, maybe then there's a fairly high current for a much longer time, than normal, which blew the fuse? If this current goes through the Kill Switch, maybe that caused the Kill Switch to fail? All depends on if the Kill Switch is between the AUX relay output and high current loads.
If starter solenoid does indeed have both coils, for want of a better term, power coil and a hold coil. There would be a contact in the solenoid that opens the high current coil, after it moves, leaving the hold coil only holding it in. Have seen solenoids that operate this way. My bike, when it's plaguing with the starter solenoid issue, hits the solenoid with power, but not enough to move the solenoid, so instead of having a momentary pulse of current, would have a continuous current, for seconds until the ECU gives up trying to start the bike.
Will be checking coil power and such later today.
The plot thickens some more,
DZ
Hi Don, I can sympathize. I was a technical writer on missile systems for the US Army. We usually had very good schematics to work from but more than once I found discrepancies between the schematic and how the unit was actually constructed when I went to check procedures on actual hardware. As they say a technical writers job is to fix an engineers mistakes. Usually it is something simple that throws us off.
Latest tests.
So I pulled tank up enough to get at a coil. Coil does get power during clip lead cranking. Power seems to follow AUX relay output. So coil has power and not spark, still points to ECU, in my opinion. So coil has power for a few seconds, during boot up, and then when I start cranking, it comes back and stays there, till cranking stops.
Took a look at the Kill Switch and Start button. First of all my worst fears were realized. Tiny wires going to both. Used stick pins to puncture the wires, hate doing that, to Kill Switch and it shorts when in run position and has 5K across them when Killed. Haven't been able to check the start switch just yet. Looks like I'll have to cut a zip tie that holds switch together to do this. Not sure it's worth doing this though, as very much doubt if switches are the problem. Still staying with my theory they both go to ECU inputs, all wires are tiny.
You by any chance know of a schematic that shows the Kill Switch and Start Button?
Very much running outta things to test, everything looks fine, just no crank or spark, and I suspect injection. Looks to me like ECU isn't using crank position info to drive the two, for whatever reason.
DZ
Item 5 in this schematic https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/resources/2005_breva_1100.75/download?version=75 is the RT switch assembly. They just give it a weird name. The symbols next to the switch gave it away. Starting sequence on the 1100 Breva is computer controlled. That is a momentary touch of the start button is all that is needed for the ECU to take over the starting sequence. If all wiring, switches, and relays check good, that points your problem to the ECU. You can test the phase sensor, it should read 680 ohms +/- 10% at 20 degrees C.
Brian UK
GT Reference
As John said, it's item 5 on that diagram. You might also look at the non ABS Norge diagram which is similar and might just have a better match for the colours.
Brian UK
GT Reference
You have checked all the safety interlocks, like the side stand switch and neutral switch?
Good point on the safety switches. Neutral switch does turn on/off the light, and side stand turns off/on it's light. Clutch one, not sure of, but don't think it would be an issue, if stand is up and in neutral?
By phase sensor you mean, what on my diagram, is called pickup? I assume this is the crank position sensor, so called on cars.
DZ
Located upper left of engine. Gets pulses from a phenolic wheel behind the camshaft gear. Guzzi term is a phase sensor. Only the bikes with a P8 computer had a crankshaft position sensor that read from the flywheel.
Don't count anything out. In theory your assumption is correct, in practice could happened. Italian electronics is almost like magic
Ah, shows you what I know. Beings as the AUX relay engages when I'm clip lead cranking, seems to me, this means that sensor must be working, only way it would know the engine is moving?
Wonder what info you get through the diagnostic plug? What kindda box does it take to read this info? Can they be bought? Wonder if it's more than I get from self diagnostics? Don't get any error codes now. Wonder if it could tell me if the puter has a problem?
I notice from the schematic I have, that the power lead using fuse #D goes into the ECU. Maybe ECU blew the fuse.
Tried to look at the schematic address you included, showing Kill and Start switches, but is says I need to contribute or some such.
DZ
So I figgered I would get back and report what my problem turned out to be. Mr Dave was a big help on this.
When bike blew the 15A fuse, at the gas station, took me a bit to figger out the fuse was blown. Must have turned over the, so called, Bank Angle Sensor. For what ever reason, bike has a sensor that disables the bike if it has fallen over. Must have put it back in upside down.
Not 100% sure it was upside down, but I took it out, made sure arrow that said Upper was pointing Upper. Had Guzzidiag connect and Bank Angle Sensor changed state, and now said starting was Possible. And it finally did. Learned a bunch about the bike during this process.
DZ
Just looked again, at what the suggested fix for the solenoid power issue is.
Looks like they suggest taking a lead directly to the battery, from start relay, instead of getting it from the ignition switch, which must have too much impedance back to the battery.
Makes me a little nervous as then relay always has power, even if switch is off. Right off can't think of a better alternative, other than running an adequate wire to the ignition switch and another back to the relay.
Drop in harness, from alternator to battery, of course, is another issue. Must drop close to .5 V from regulator, which is on the back of the alternator, to battery. Installed a new regulator, which has a proper set point, supposedly around 14.6 V, unlike original that was more like 13.2 V. Now battery's getting charged around 14.0 to 14.1 V at cool temps. Would be nicer to be a bit higher. Delco alternators had regulators that were neat as they had a sense lead, you could hook it anywhere you wanted. Like run it directly to the battery.
It's alwas somethin,
DZ
Hello Don,
I have had issues with my Breva almost ever since I bought it about 12 years ago. I have never looked at the regulator, but while I do a lot of bike maintenance this has not been on my list. If I can get a higher charging current I might be tempted to change mine.
Where exactly is the regulator? What make and model did you use to replace the oem one?
aussiedave
Tuned and Synch'ed
Hi guys, been off line awhile , hope everyone had a merry and safe Christmas and New Year.
As a 2005 Breva owner , touch wood narry a problem that isn't standard Guzzi practice . my 2 cents worth
The starter relay must be changed from "factory schematic" . sorry you engineers and tech guys. See the threads on this site for starter motor relay rewire direct from battery not ig switch via kill switch. Throw out your books , you don't need them , don't rely on printed schematics and keep it simple.
As for " For what ever reason, bike has a sensor that disables the bike if it has fallen over. Must have put it back in upside down.":
We'll i never knew I had one so never took it out or replaced it upside down. I'll watch out next time !
I did drop the Breva once trying to do a yooie on a dirt track , it started up ok after so maybe the factory forgot to put one of those switches on my bike ?
ps - yes i also replaced the oil pressure sensor and have fitted a not plastic fuel filter , check all rear swingarm / suspension linkages , bearings etc clean and regrease as required , check your gas tank drain pipe is clear and all should be sweet.
Remove main fuses when " laid up " or use a battery tender.
Happy Guzzi Miles
Dave r
As a 2005 Breva owner , touch wood narry a problem that isn't standard Guzzi practice . my 2 cents worth
The starter relay must be changed from "factory schematic" . sorry you engineers and tech guys. See the threads on this site for starter motor relay rewire direct from battery not ig switch via kill switch. Throw out your books , you don't need them , don't rely on printed schematics and keep it simple.
As for " For what ever reason, bike has a sensor that disables the bike if it has fallen over. Must have put it back in upside down.":
We'll i never knew I had one so never took it out or replaced it upside down. I'll watch out next time !
I did drop the Breva once trying to do a yooie on a dirt track , it started up ok after so maybe the factory forgot to put one of those switches on my bike ?
ps - yes i also replaced the oil pressure sensor and have fitted a not plastic fuel filter , check all rear swingarm / suspension linkages , bearings etc clean and regrease as required , check your gas tank drain pipe is clear and all should be sweet.
Remove main fuses when " laid up " or use a battery tender.
Happy Guzzi Miles
Dave r
Howdy Mr Dave,
So called, Bank Angle Sensor, only disables the bike, if bike is laid over. Once you pick it back up, should work normally.
DZ
Howdy,
The Voltage regulator is mounted on the back of the alternator. Guzzi doesn't sell regulators only, need to buy the whole alternator, at some astronomical price. I bought mine offa the internet from someplace in Denver Colorado for about fifty bucks.
A voltage regulator regulates the output voltage the alternator supplies. Alternators are basically constant current machines. They put out a current determined by the field current. Course batteries need to be charged to a voltage determined by temperature. So the voltage regulator increases the field current until a set point voltage, at the battery, is reached, then it decrease the field current to hold it at this voltage. Ideally this voltage is independent of load current. The set voltage has a TC (Temperature Coefficient) to it, that matches a lead/acid battery TC. This TC is negative. Hotter you get the lower the voltage. At 75 degrees F, should be around 14.5 Volts.
If you either undercharge or overcharge a lead/acid battery, it's hard on the battery. Too much and it out gasses. Electrolysis will change water into O2 and hydrogen. Too little and I'm not sure what it does, but will shorten battery life. Sulfating comes to mind. I'm bad on battery chemistry.
Was told, by a dealer, that some Guzzis came with voltage regulators set too low. Mine had this issue. Guzzi seems to monitor battery voltage, with the regulator, at the alternator. Problem is, there's a voltage between the alternator to the battery, so even though the regulator charges at the correct voltage the battery still is somewhat undercharged. My bike apparently has about a .7 Volt drop.
To check if your regulator is properly charging your battery, you need to run the bike, for awhile, to make sure you are on the regulator, then with it running, check the battery voltage, at the battery, with an accurate DVM. Mine now reads around 14 volts, when cold, drops some when warm.
There's a battery voltage function, on my bike that can be read on the speedo. You use left handlebar slid switch in the only position not trip mileage related. Then hit the button on the same handlebar, near the front once. It will then read battery voltage. Only don't believe the number. Mine reads .7 volts below the DVM reading. Once you find this offset, using a DVM on the battery, you can do the math.
Originally mine was only charging the battery to a little over 13 volts. This did several things. Shortened my battery life. So I would put a charger on it, in the shed, to fully charge the battery from time to time. Would bring it up to 15 volts. Pain in the ass. That's why god gave us alternators with regulators.
Also aggravated the solenoid starting issue. When a bike gets hot, solenoid winding impedance, which has a positive TC, gets higher and battery voltage lower, because of affore mentioned TC. You reach a crossover point, where it won't crank. Makes for a bad day. Especially if this occurs at a gas station. Trust me. Have to bump start the bike. This can lead to loud verbal whining from Brazilian Hot Tamales on the back. Trust me.
There's apparently a voltage monitor in the ECU, which disables the starting circuit, if the battery voltage is too low. So when you try to crank, it won't. Course if your battery voltage is being undercharged you are closer to this disagreeable point, all the time. Again, not all that nice, at gas stations. Or if it's a cold morning and you get all bundled up, ready for a ride, hit the button, and nothing. Trust me. They apparently don't have enough filtering on this voltage sensor, because once it starts cranking will sometimes keep cranking.
Have cursed the dealer and his ancestors, many times, who sold me the bike, without telling me this stuff. Had to learn it on my own, and he had to know all of this for many years. Fortunately for him, he's about 1500 miles from where I live. Could have just given me and other buyers, a sheet of paper with this info. Or better yet, changed the regulator and solenoid wiring before foisting the bike on me.
So fix for battery charging voltage is a new properly set regulator. This helps the solenoid issue also. But still is best to move the power lead for the solenoid directly to the battery. Haven't done this, just yet, on mine, as I'd like to find some terminals the would plug into the multi-fuse block, so I could use the spot that presently isn't used. Fuses are smaller than my auto stuff, so haven't run across any just yet. Sometimes you just gotta have patience.
Also has made the affore mentioned ECU detector lockout issue much better, hasn't happened since I changed the regulator. Would happen every time it was cold out, and I hadn't run the battery charger first before.
Hope this helps,
DZ
Brian UK
GT Reference
I very much doubt some voltage regulators are set too low, they aren't made by Guzzi of course.
BUT on my Norge (identical wiring to the Breva) I had a low charge voltage at the battery (around 13.25v). The fault was partly a high resistance joint somewhere in the wire from the alternator main output, via the 30A inline fuse and another ln line connector to the battery. I ran a new heavier wire from the alternator direct to the battery positive, and immediately got 14.25 volts at tickover.
No amount of replacement alternators or regulators would have cured my low charge voltage, as the fault was in the wiring. And since your Breva is older than my Norge, I suggest you look there too.
Oh, and it's well known that the dash voltage readout can be lower than that measured across the battery, but after my wiring repair, it was much closer on my bike.
BUT on my Norge (identical wiring to the Breva) I had a low charge voltage at the battery (around 13.25v). The fault was partly a high resistance joint somewhere in the wire from the alternator main output, via the 30A inline fuse and another ln line connector to the battery. I ran a new heavier wire from the alternator direct to the battery positive, and immediately got 14.25 volts at tickover.
No amount of replacement alternators or regulators would have cured my low charge voltage, as the fault was in the wiring. And since your Breva is older than my Norge, I suggest you look there too.
Oh, and it's well known that the dash voltage readout can be lower than that measured across the battery, but after my wiring repair, it was much closer on my bike.