8V Failure info.

[Mi_ka]

Applying pressure on them not allowing the marketing brains think the "all good, minor glitch, nevermind" mantra.

 

[guzzicrazy]

Surely if it was an oil temperature thing, then you would not expect so many failures in not so sunny Britain, and more in everso hot Aus.

But clearly Guzzi/Piaggio still have no idea why this is happening, and I'm sure they have put a few brains onto the problem.
So what is the point in us guessing?

I live near the Mediterranean Sea, there is always moisture, it does not rain every day but there is moisture. in England, France, Italy .... throughout Europe.
My opinion is that the temperature is not important, but the humidity and the type of use of the bike, short trips of less than 20 minutes, causing accumulation of water mixed with oil.

It is known that all guzzis modern Condenser oil, produce this phenomenon, but is not problem in the 2 valves.

The 8V with the came in head and tapets, things change, do not think it's great that these parts are in contact with the mayonnaise.

Guzzi is just a way to make parts with a hardness sufficient to support the cause ..... mayonnaise for me, but I'm not an engineer.
When I heard the noise characteristic of the fault, I opened to check the clearance, and I found mayonnaise.

another possibility .... is the hardness of the valve springs, you may still should be more hard to prevent the end float, especially at high speed, in the two times I've dectectad the problem was back to 2 times strong circulation with the bike coming to court at 8500 rpm injection. but I understand that this is very simple as to be the cause.

 

[Trogladyte]

So, we don't seem to be getting much closer to really understanding what is going on with the bikes that fail, and why there seem to be clusters of failures, while other bikes are problem free. Sadly I seem to have been on the sharp end of this. I bought my 8v Griso new in 08. It's a bit of a dark tale, but it has been serviced and repaired by a London dealer with an excellent reputation, so think it's unlikely there have been multiple errors. Briefly:

The bike failed just before the recall and had new cams and tappets, flushed and refilled with Rockoil fully synth 10w/60
The it had a rattle which sounded like cam chain, but a new chain did not fix it. After reference to MG, new cam carriers were fitted.
Then I had a further cam/tappet failure, and another set of cams, tappets, flush and new oil. I think the oil pump was also replaced - Piaggio customer service said they were looking at the oil delivery to the l/h side.

Finally in February, I had my third cam failure. Piaggio says that the latest cams and tappets plus a "hi-flow oil pump" will cure the issue. The good news is that they are going t do it under warranty. The bad news is that I am still waiting for it to be done, as the dealer is doing 8vs in the order in which they are reported, and I am STILL not at the front of the queue.

Here's a thought - if there is an oil problem (and I can see that there are compelling arguments about why this is probably not the cae - but SOMETHING is happening to these bikes!), could there be a difference between bikes used for largely urban work, and those used for largely highway work? I'm told that the oil delivery at the head is ver low pressure at tick-over, but picks up to something very acceptable at higher rpm. Could t be that bikes that spend a lot of time waiting at traffic lights and in heavy traffic suffer from the perfect storm of
1. getting hot due to low air flow on fins and over oil cooler, and slow oil circulation through cooler; and
2. inadequate delivery of fresh cooler oil to the heads?

 

[scott_m]

You have some interesting points. Given that as of yesterday, I am the proud owner of a new 2012 Stelvio NTX, the 8V issues do concern me.

I am most curious about the number of failures on bikes who used the strict Eni oil recommended at the factory. I wonder if their is a correlation to oil used/failures.

Also, your point about commuting is intriging. It would be interesting to know of those who had failures, how many operated their bikes routinely ike that.

I am certain that their has to be a common thread among the failures. I am highly suspicious that it's just a matter of "chance".

 

[draidt]

You have some interesting points. Given that as of yesterday, I am the proud owner of a new 2012 Stelvio NTX, the 8V issues do concern me.

I am most curious about the number of failures on bikes who used the strict Eni oil recommended at the factory. I wonder if their is a correlation to oil used/failures.

Also, your point about commuting is intriging. It would be interesting to know of those who had failures, how many operated their bikes routinely ike that.

I am certain that their has to be a common thread among the failures. I am highly suspicious that it's just a matter of "chance".

Just ride the beast ! If you have been following the 8V failure saga, Yes there have SOME whose failures could be the result of improper oil being used and unfortunately even today going on 4 years it is still being done in GB, Spain, France by dealers. The problem is very rare here and down under why ? Well the US for one did not get the 8V motor until 2009 and the overwhelming majority had the cam recall done before they went out the door. The failure rate on the 2010's, 11's especially is either very low or in the case of the 2011 AFAIK non existent in the US and the head cooling jets have been redesigned I know in the 2012's not sure about the 11's. I ride my Griso SE without concern use the recommended 4T 10w60 oil be it Motorex, Agip/Eni or Motul. Yes I do check my valve clearance often but have yet to have to make an adjustment. When I reach 10 K I will stop doing that .


I have to wonder if the very early 8V's before they realized that some of the cam followers were not correctly hardened were doomed from the start at the factory when and make no mistake about were started and test run at very high RPM before they were crated up. We do know that some bikes again over the big pond when failed were fitted with the same bad parts. How many multiple failure motors were not flushed completely and that includes the oil cooler or the oil pump inspected ( If it happened to my Motor it would get a NEw oil pump even at my expense). Congrats on your NTX !

 

[Mi_ka]

Piaggio says that the latest cams and tappets plus a "hi-flow oil pump" will cure the issue.

It seems still a bit foggy if the latest tappets are roller type or not.
Hi-Flow pump? Interesting, this info could stick pretty well to your theory of poor flow at idle speeds - yeah, the pressure may be high at low rpm due to the pressure adjusting valve but flow is surely reduced.
It could even append to my theory of poor lubrication of cold heads taking some time to remove condensed moisture depriving proper lubrication in the first few seconds of fire-up and thus accumulating wear to the shallow hardened layer.

 

[scott_m]

Thank you Dan. I appreciate your valuable input. I love my bike. She was SINGING today! :woohoo:

 

[ferdi]

I can tell you all that the moisture suspect cannot be true.
my Stelvio, EU model 2011, new in July 2011, had already cam and tappet abrasion with 7000 km, even no noise or too large valve clearance had occured. But we openend the motor in winter to see how everything looks like.
Motor is completly clean, oil looked like new.
Now i get new cams and tappets from dealer/importer.
My bike is mostly used for longer distances than 50 km, nearly no city traffic, no longer idle times, no high rpm highway runs (not over 6000 rpm for longer distances), well serviced from dealer at 1500 km (first service).
So, it just has the problem - my first bike with such a problem since 35 years of bike driving. My former BMW R100GS was 110000km trouble free.
I am sure, its not the driver, its not the oil, its not the humidity - some materials in some bikes are just crap.
And, its not just 2008 or 2009 models, its still there in EU2011 models (mine is not the only one I know of - http://www.razyboard.com/system/morethr ... 528-0.html ).
I get the newest parts available, rumors say that in winter 2011/2012 tappets and cams changed, will see if problem occurs again.
Model MY2012 should be fine, but only future will show it if it only was a material problem or it is a design feature.

 

[guzzitakecare]

I can tell you all that the moisture suspect cannot be true.

+ 1
No "mayonnaise" in my A5 motor and in other french motors. And new 2011/2012 Norge 8V come back to shop since 3 monthes in France. No more informations about it.

Just for fun after more 7 monthes I will pick up my Stelvio this monday. I will assist "my" technician and take all pictures as possible. Technical pdf file coming soon....

Last parts came on 2012 may 18th (my Stelvio is stopped since 2011 oct 19th)...

The most important french press magazine (120,000 readers) has been informed about the camshaft problems and the journalist phoned to Piaggio France last friday. Seems not to be very happy by my actions (letters, phone in Italy, press magazine). I ask me why....

Sergio (always sorry for his "kitchen" english)

 

[Mi_ka]

I must put away these moisture related theories for good! ... but they keep coming back under this & that special circumstances etc...

The French market must be a major customer for MotoGuzzi so if the press starts talking on it, they will feel the pressure to finally address what seems to be a real issue in some markets, whatever the reason, malpractice by technicians/crappy parts/low oil flow or whatever...
In comparison, I know with my DR that some screws in there need some loctite because Suzuki never addressed the problem since '96 (even in '11 models) and these screws can completely wreck a reliable engine in 10 000 or 100 000 Kms but, heck, I know what to do to address the manufacturer's well known shortcoming in there!

 

[Pascal]

Sergio (always sorry for his "kitchen" english)

How's your kitchen French??
Or do you have a French in the kitchen? :woohoo:

 

[guzzitakecare]

How's your kitchen French??
Or do you have a French in the kitchen? :woohoo:

It's an untranslable french locution when you are not easy with a language : "english of kitchen"... don't try..

I can also say "I speak english like a spanish cow !"

Sergio @ sorry for your eyes and ears

 

[guzzitakecare]

I will assist "my" technician and take all pictures as possible. Technical pdf file coming soon....

Done !

You will find the file here : http://www.guzzitek.org/8v_motor2012

Don't be afraid : title is in french but content is in French and English.

Concern Stelvio A5 MY 2008. May be available for Griso A5 and others.

I think you will be happy to see quality of the new parts...

Sergio @ on the road again

 

[Mi_ka]

Happy indeed

 

[kwn306]

Wow, this thread has been going on for 3 1/2 yrs and we are no closer to solving the issue today then we were 3 1/2 yrs ago.

As a previous owner of a Stelvio that had three sets of cams/tappets installed within the 1st 36,000 miles (all covered by Guzzi) this troubles me. The 1st set of cam/tappets were installed when the bike had 100 miles on it, the next set of cams/tappets were installed at 32,000 miles and the last set was installed in 10/2011 with 36,000 miles on the bike. I used the bike as a commuter (145 miles a day) and a weekend warrior from 15F to 100 F, it always had 10w-60 Agrip oil in the pan. The cylinder heads would roast my knees in the summer but keep me toasty in the winter. BTW,the left hand cam and tappets were always the ones that failed, the right hand set would be worn but not to the degree the left hand set.

I miss the beast, I replaced it with a GSA which has a far superior suspension but a terrible motor compared to the Guzzi V twin. I jumped on the forum today in hopes that I would read that the problems with the cam & tappets had a solution as I found a 09 Stelvio used at a Honda dealer near me. But from what I have read there is not solution, my wait continues :blink:

 

[Pascal]

I can also say "I speak english like a spanish cow !"

Vache Espagnole, lol.

 

[Mi_ka]

Looking at the friction markings of the rocker arm supports as portrayed at Guzzitakecare's pdf I think this cries of lack of adequate lubrication or wrong clearances and most probably weakens any ZDDP omission theory.
As I remember watching Jay Leno's garage show, he had been telling many times that some old italian engineer had educated him on being aware that all italian designs have relatively narrow oil passages.
If this is the case, given this engineering culture, maybe so has been the 8V design too.
So I think we go back a few pages were the elaborate lubrication gallery system is discussed.
It is pretty obvious that any minor disruption lower in the system will cause flow to divert to the point of disruption and become reduced to the small galleries that lead to the heads.
As noted in Guzzitakecare's pdf the detail quality of the parts is not stellar.
Could there minor delicate mistakes done at assembly & part production lines cause minor clearance differences affecting flow through the galleries? The lubrication system may be well adequate if everything has been assembled and trimmed right but may be not overengineered enough to absorb such clearance fluctuations causing the failures on random basis.
I cannot think of any regular maintenance mistake causing this except wrong oil viscosity.
I'd love to here from Pete on this theory... :S

 

[draidt]

Playing a what if game, This picture is out of the 8V training manual. See the inner pipe and oil pump union connection, smaller circle what if on some motors the seal leaks would not the oil pressure going to the cooler and eventually to the heads be diminished, how out side of a pressure reading at the oil cooler would it be known ? any oil leaking would just drain down into the sump.

 

[Mi_ka]

I don't think there is a connection here:
The lubrication of the heads is happening through the other pump -this pump is for the cooling low pressure system only.
Have a look back in this thread around page 30 (https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/196/1431.html?start=290) were this has been discussed more deeply -hey I see you in there as well!

I am convinced there is no fundamental flaw in the design as this means all 8V bikes would brake at some point in time - I now believe that on certain random bikes "something" or a combination of "somethings" is giving slack where it shouldn't and this deprives adequate lubrication flow to the heads - this is why there has no been a solid diagnose and all this head scratching happens.
May be this happens on low rpm only but how about low rpm operation after some miles of WOT? The thermal loads won't have been dissipated yet and then low flow could be catastrophic (something like closed throttle after heavy WOT on a stressed two stroke: Bang! goes the bite end...)

But you know, belief is good for spiritual stuff, not mechanical.

 

[draidt]

I don't think there is a connection here:
The lubrication of the heads is happening through the other pump -this pump is for the cooling low pressure system only.
Have a look back in this thread around page 30 (https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/196/1431.html?start=290) were this has been discussed more deeply -hey I see you in there as well!

I am convinced there is no fundamental flaw in the design as this means all 8V bikes would brake at some point in time - I now believe that on certain random bikes "something" or a combination of "somethings" is giving slack where it shouldn't and this deprives adequate lubrication flow to the heads - this is why there has no been a solid diagnose and all this head scratching happens.
May be this happens on low rpm only but how about low rpm operation after some miles of WOT? The thermal loads won't have been dissipated yet and then low flow could be catastrophic (something like closed throttle after heavy WOT on a stressed two stroke: Bang! goes the bite end...)

But you know, belief is good for spiritual stuff, not mechanical.

Not to be argumentative but I respectively disagree, The picture below clearly shows the output of the oil cooler (Blue Pipe) going directly to the distribution banjo to the heads, There is one known cooked motor in the US, because one of the oil lines to the head developed a bad leak and the owner still rode it home and lo and behold there was an awful racket coming from that jug when he got it home, He was a poster on Wild Goose and hasn't posted since he put this on the board and I guess because every one intimated that he was basically an idiot for continue riding it. I like you do not believe there is a basic flaw in the motor especially the A8 motors with the upgraded bits why there is a definite geographical pattern remains the mystery.