California 1400 Engine Braking

[Mrmerlin]

I have had a few lower displacement Guzzi s a 78 LeMans and 72 Eldo and both of them idled smooth,
IDK why this engine would be any different they both have individual injectors but one throttle body
I wonder how this engine would run with 2 Dellortos inplace of the injection

 

[kiwi dave]

I wonder how this engine would run with 2 Dellortos inplace of the injection

If the lumpy idle is created as I'm suggesting, then carburetors would not avert this. If you're really concerned about the idle, why not try what I was contemplating, and temporarily remove the spark plug lead to the offset plugs? This should confirm this is how they create the Milwaukee Waltz.

If you do try this, I would recommend a couple of spare spark plugs fitted to the removed leads, to prevent extraneous sparks jumping around.

Be also aware that you will not have any traction control, and service codes may appear on your dashboard.

 

[John L]

I love the lumpy idle, it's like the thing comes alive when you hit the starter but there again I also like the moaning sound although I haven't noticed it as much on the Guzzi as my old FJ1200 that moans with satisfaction for at least an hout after a good ride. I could say the same thing about the wife but I'd better not.

 

[Touringman]

Seems to me we are mixing two different symptoms together. I went back & read about fhe hanging throttle. I wrote a reply where I also combined both symptoms. My understanding is that the hanging throttle is the condition when the engine rpms don't drop down completely to idle speed &" hang up" at a higher rpm than normal ,, replacing the clutch microswitch appears to have fixed that condition for me ( recommended by others on this site)

CORRECT SIR!!

.. the engine braking is a completely different symptom that mostly shows up when decending a downhill grade, and I get the same results as everyone on here which is engine braking drops off at 3000 rpm (while decending ) then seems to come on & off as I continue decending. I know that every one on here does not live around the mountains but on a long downhill I can really feel the engine braking going on & off below 3000 rpm. The way I avoid this is to keep the revs higher, even when decending. I have the fueling mods on my bike

Mine pretty well quits below 3000, but you have diagnosed it correctly!

 

[Touringman]

after fitting Minstral pipes I have a lot of popping at 3000 RPM and below while decelerating in gear.
From 3K and above no popping I could downshift at 5 K and close the throttle and she slows down with the engine the exhaust is quiet as soon as I reach 3000 RPM the pipes start popping all the way to idle its like a switch i have tried a richer ECU map and that has not done much to eliminate this issue.

Nor will it. You had it before you fitted the Mistral exhaust, but the stock exhaust is so quiet, you could not hear it like you can now...

My Guess for the idle is, The lumpy idle may be programed into the injection/ ignition system to fire alternating cylinders so the engine shakes.

Gentlemen, allow me to interject some info here, NOT to embarrass or expose anyone, but to impart knowledge. The above misconception is not only very common, it is also nearly 100% false. I say almost, because, yes, a "rough" idle can be exaggerated by both ignition timing and cam profile and timing as well. But they are NOT, primarily responsible for the "shake" of a V-twin.

Without going into a full on engineering dissertation, assume a common crank pin 90 degree V Twin...just like the C1400.
Answer these questions:
1. How many degrees of rotation are there in 1 (one) engine revolution on a 4 stroke engine (like our C1400's)?
2. If the #1 piston fires at 0 degrees, thus starting the revolution, at what degree of rotation does the #2 piston fire?
3. How many degrees of rotation does the engine complete AFTER the #2 piston fires, But BEFORE the #1 piston is in position to fire again?

Answers:
1. 720 Each piston MUST complete TWO up and down cycles to complete it's work in a 4 stroke engine . EG: Intake, piston moves down. Compression, piston moves up. Power, plug(s) fire, piston is driven down. Exhaust, burned gas is pushed put of the cylinder as the piston moves back up.
2. 270 Simple math. 360 - 90 = 270 This is 1/2 of the above, as remember, it has to rotate twice to complete one "revolution". 360 degrees - 90 degree spread between the cylinders = the # of degrees left or 270.
3. 450 A little more complicated to explain. Math is thus: 0 + 270 + 450 = 720 or if you break it into 8ths (90x8=720) it would look like this: BANG, coast, coast, BANG, coast, coast, coast, coast, BANG, coast, coast, BANG, coast, coast, coast, coast.....on and on FAST!

Anybody see a pattern here? Not "even" is it? This is why your engine shakes. It is the reason ALL V engines shake to one extent or another. Would it surprise you to know that our 1400 has a BIGGER "coasting gap" than a Harley -Davidson? (HD is 315/405).
It is not physically possible to get ANY single crank pin V twin to idle "perfectly smooth". You can get them smoothish...by tweaking cam or ignition timing, or by using balance shafts, or by keeping the piston diameter to a minimum. They ALL shake, they HAVE to. The only kind of engine that "fires" evenly is the boxer engine, think Porsche flat 6, Honda Gold wing flat 6, Subaru flat 4, and the BMW or Ural flat twin. OR a straight 6 or 8. But even those are different animals too.

I did not go into first and second order vibrations, offset crank pins or flat plane cranks, this is just about our v twins and those made by HD, various Japanese cruisers, Victory, etc. The same rules apply to all.
Lastly remember, the C1400 is a serious, modern example of the V Twin . 1380cc, yet produces (with Todd's fueling) over 100hp and nearly as much torque. It has a 7000+ rpm redline, overhead cams, dual ignition...and by the way; that second plug is there to help manage unburned hydrocarbons exiting the exhaust (usually at low RPM or high rpm closed throttle situation) to conform to Euro emission standards. It does NOT manage the shake any more than the injectors do.
By comparison the new Harley -Davidson 8 valve motor is 1746cc but only produces 106 foot pounds of torque and only 77hp. And it is one of the best engines HD has ever produced, but they are married to a managed sound, Guzzi is all about engineering and performance.
Hope this helps the collective better understand what we ride.
Kirk

 

[Mrmerlin]

Hey Kirk thanks for adding in , I have a question.
What is the system being used while the engine decelerating in gear under 3000 RPM that is causing my pipes to pop.
Over 3K the pipes are quiet and its like a switch at 3K and lower pop pop pop

 

[kiwi dave]

Gentlemen, allow me to interject some info here, NOT to embarrass or expose anyone, but to impart knowledge. The above misconception is not only very common, it is also nearly 100% false. I say almost, because, yes, a "rough" idle can be exaggerated by both ignition timing and cam profile and timing as well. But they are NOT, primarily responsible for the "shake" of a V-twin.Kirk

Great explanation, but doesn't explain why the Milwaukee Waltz only is only present on the C1400, and not across the other Guzzi range.

 

[Touringman]

Hey Kirk thanks for adding in , I have a question.
What is the system being used while the engine decelerating in gear under 3000 RPM that is causing my pipes to pop.
Over 3K the pipes are quiet and its like a switch at 3K and lower pop pop pop

Mrmerlin, I would guess that it is not a "system" but part of the engine management program in the ECU. All of us have it to one extent or another and the "line" is 3000 rpm. I would bet the programing uses the "engine braking" above 3000 (that glorious sound when running hard and closing the throttle quickly, it "quits" at 3000.) I would guess the engineers who built the engine management software, figured that once the RPM drops below 3000, they could go into a mode to limit unburned hydrocarbons as the engine is slowing and there is a need to pass the Euro emission standard. It is most likely not removable.
That said, If you have added the Mistral exhaust (I run those!) but not added the "fueling mods" that the proprietor here, Todd, has gone to great lengths to engineer for us, your engine is now running (in my estimation) dangerously lean. The Euro emission standards require a VERY lean mixture to pass. Lean mixtures raise combustion temperatures significantly. A free flowing exhaust makes things worse, by creating an even leaner condition than stock, and in certain conditions, that can cause engine damage. Melted sparkplug electrodes and burned exhaust valves are common signs of the internal damage.
Todd's system changes some of the ECU programing and significantly richens the fuel mixture to measurably improve performance and cool down the combustion chambers. Yes, it is a bit spendy...but what does an engine rebuild cost?
Hope that helps!
Kirk

 

[Touringman]

Great explanation, but doesn't explain why the Milwaukee Waltz only is only present on the C1400, and not across the other Guzzi range.

kiwi dave, two possible explanations.
1. The engine is not a stressed member in the 1400. It hangs in the frame (sort of) it is not hard bolted to the frame so nothing is dissipated through the frame.
2. The 1400 is a big oversquare engine. Meaning that the bore is bigger than the stroke is long. 4.10 vs. 3.85 inches (104+ vs 97mm) that piston is producing a lot of torque and HP. It is also possible that the small block and older big blocks use dual crank pins or offset crank journals, which would significantly smooth out the firing pulses by changing the 270/450 sequence. On those I don't know, never pulled one apart.
I am reasonably sure that Guzzi set up the cam profile, timing, and ignition timing to take advantage of the single pin (journal) crank on the 1400. But the 1400 was going to shake regardless of what Guzzi did to the timing. It was after all designed as a cruiser, and cruisers, and their riders, are designed to be "shaken, not stirred".
Kirk

 

[kiwi dave]

It is also possible that the small block and older big blocks use dual crank pins or offset crank journals, which would significantly smooth out the firing pulses by changing the 270/450 sequence.

All Guzzis since the V7 was developed in 1971 have the 270/450 sequence. Sure the Cali 1400 motor is rubber mounted, but that alone doesn't explain the crappy idle.

It looks like I gotta get around to disabling the off-set spark plugs to confirm my theory that the Milwaukee Waltz is deliberate.

 

[Mrmerlin]

Kirk if you missed it i have an ECU reflash on my bike to add more fuel,
then another to add even more fuel from 3000RPM and below,
none of these mods have decreased the popping from the pipes.
The man thats assisting me is convinced its an air source leaking into the system.
So whats the source and how does it know to come on at 3000 RPM and below

 

[GTM®]

Kirk if you missed it i have an ECU reflash on my bike to add more fuel, then another to add even more fuel from 3000RPM and below, none of these mods have decreased the popping from the pipes.

Perhaps you missed (or are again ignoring) my post above, but the static flashes I have seen did not touch the fuel maps. I have sold several kits where the owners came to me after being tired of poor (post flash) running 1400s.
Again, post your Air/Fuel data to show where it has been resolved. If you cannot do that, you cannot be helped and your posts will be deleted as they divert people from this site, which offers a solution that is well proven to do everything it is designed to do, including closed throttle (decel) popping.

 

[Mrmerlin]

Todd i am not ignoring what you wrote,
infact I have read most of your tuning threads a few times to learn from a master.
If there were different less expensive options that could provide the fuel enrichment for my Eldorado and you would sell them i would not have been looking at other options.

I do believe that it is not very smart to reinvent the horse, you have done the tedious work,
now its time to sell it, Its just for me 1200.00 is too much to spend on a computer chip upgrade I am not interested in tweaking the bike for the very last HP......... It is a cruiser, I ride slower than I used too,
and every once in a while I open it up and it works great.
I just want it to run good and have no issues while doing that.

You are asking me for tuning documentation and I dont have anything like that.
I am relying on an internet connection and someone named Dave to provide me a map for my bike.

I have not taken the bike to the dyno but I have ridden it from new and it was running great before I did any mods and now it runs even better the popping is my only issue/ and if I could eliminate the idle shake I would do it.

I dont have any way to read the maps I have been sent,
and they are installed with a device that looks just like the one your selling.
Dave has said that he richened up the fueling ,
then added even more to try to get rid of the decel popping it didnt work.

I am still learning about the motorcycle fuel injection.

So I will ask you this will you be able to make a ecu flash that adds fuel and stops the exhaust popping and also makes sure the bike will live a long happy life with your ECU flashed computer,
and sell it for under 599.00.
If so , Then i would be interested as i am sure a lot of other owners.

What i got from your marketing was that in order to achieve the results that your talking about,
I would need to add on 2 extra computer boxes to my bike and spend 1200.00 doing that.
I dont want all that extra stuff added on,
I need a simple solution and less expensive,
so I can lift the seat put the program in the bike and then ride it and forget it.
Maybe this is something you can provide

 

[GTM®]

So I will ask you this will you be able to make a ecu flash that adds fuel and stops the exhaust popping and also makes sure the bike will live a long happy life with your ECU flashed computer, and sell it for under 599.00. Maybe this is something you can provide

Per my many posts on this... no it is not something I can offer and stand behind. It's the reason I only sell the more expensive, far more dynamic "revisions on the fly" kit. The only mod proven to work, as the 7SM ECU is a fairly complex one, and most other "tuners" do what I call "blanket static revisions" that they are used to doing on other ECUs, and they simply don't work on the the 7SM. If they can't show you their work on paper, the value is worthless at $599.

 

[Trout]

Hey Mrmerlin!
I deleted the context of your quote only because the next time you log in you should get a message/link that will bring you here.
Hope that makes sense.

I just want to let you know that I totally get where you are coming from but sadly in today's world you are not really going to find satisfaction going the direction you are trying to go.

Please take a moment & read what I post because what you are going thru is exactly what I went thru some years back.

I have been riding since the days of kick starts, carbs, points & condensors, a time when we did our own wrenching.
My Avatar photo is a bike I rode for many years & was actually planning on touring with it.
I used to do all my own wrenching & I began to think about traveling without the worry of road side repairs.
So I bought my first ever brand new vehicle: 2011 Guzzi Black Eagle 1100 & then the fun began.

Bike did not run as well as I expected it to.
I'll make a long story short & tell you that after a whole lot of research & trying this & that I "bit the bullet" & ordered Todd's fueling kit.
No I did not like spending that kind of money on top of the purchase price of the bike I also did not like adding on two more electrical components but I did it and was amazed at the results.

After I did it & started talking to owners of other brands I found out that almost every new bike owner in this modern world of ours expects to spend this kind of money with any brand of new bike & a whole lot more on some brands than others.

Bottom line is; If you want the bike to run correctly & last a long time just do it right one time & enjoy the bike.

One last observation. I did notice in one part of your last post you said: "It is a cruiser, I ride slower than I used too"
Appearance wise they are a cruiser but the heart of these Guzzi's is still performance oriented.
I believe they fill the need of two worlds very nicely but weigh heavier on the sport side.
Even tho you may say this "I am not interested in tweaking the bike for the very last HP" just remember that any machine that is tuned correctly will run properly & most efficiently.

I have talked to a number of "previous owners" of the C1400 range & mostly what I hear is that the bike was different from what they expected. Basically It was too fast & they could not get used to the way it handled they thought they were buying a laid back cruiser.

 

[Smartleynz]

Kirk if you missed it i have an ECU reflash on my bike to add more fuel,
then another to add even more fuel from 3000RPM and below,
none of these mods have decreased the popping from the pipes.
The man thats assisting me is convinced its an air source leaking into the system.
So whats the source and how does it know to come on at 3000 RPM and below

I can make my Custom with Todds kits and pipes pop on decel by not fully closing the throttle of, I have a Harley with Thundermax kit which does exactly the same, my Griso also did it, not sure what chip it had. Most bikes pop on decel I have noticed. Chop down another cog stops it. Why do they rattle so much is a bigger question.

 

[blakbird]

MrMerlin,

There may be another way to look at the long term benefits of the GTM fuel mod package. From the factory, due to restrictive EU emission standards, these bikes run very lean which means they run very hot. The GTM package increase the fuel part of the Air Fuel ratio, and reduces the heat. Overheated engines don't tend to last as long as cooler running ones. When overheated engines fail the parts alone are usually very expensive. I suspect the cost of parts would likely exceed the cost of the fuel mod package.

I plan on keeping my 1400 Custom for a long time and consider the GTM fuel mod package a wellness plan for my bike.

Regards,

PS. As a bonus I'm enjoying the heck out of how well the wellness plan is working out.

 

[Touringman]

MrMerlin,

There may be another way to look at the long term benefits of the Gt-Rx fuel mod package. From the factory, due to restrictive EU emission standards, these bikes run very lean which means they run very hot. The GT-Rx package increase the fuel part of the Air Fuel ratio, and reduces the heat. Overheated engines don't tend to last as long as cooler running ones. When overheated engines fail the parts alone are usually very expensive. I suspect the cost of parts would likely exceed the cost of the fuel mod package.

I plan on keeping my 1400 Custom for a long time and consider the Gt-Rx fuel mod package a wellness plan for my bike.

Regards,

PS. As a bonus I'm enjoying the heck out of how well the wellness plan is working out.

WHAT BLAKBIRD SAID...