crank oil seal -- DIY time and what parts?

[dakh]

Hi,
I just bought a new to me 2009 Stelvio, gorgeous bike in pristine condition with only 15K on the clock. No scratches to speak of, super clean.

Previous owner took it to Moto International for service (we're local), and I'm guessing trailered it back home since he can't actually ride the bike anymore.

Then I bought the bike and within a couple days of riding it started leaking oil out of the back of the motor.

I first thought it's the oil pan gasket (the one that's the "top ring", not sure of the terminology), but then I've read this thread https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/stelvio-2009-with-recurent-oil-leaks.17589/ and did some more looking around and I'm pretty convinced it's leaking from the crank seal.

I then checked oil level and it was overfilled by a good quart, if not more. Making the oil level back to where it should be didn't stop the leak.

So I think what happened is MotoI overfilled it, then I rode it like I stole it, and that pushed the seal over the edge and it started leaking.

I called MotoI and they are booked over month in advance. Their mechanic is supposed to call me back to maybe fit me in, but I haven't gotten a callback yet. I'm also assuming I'm going to have to pick up the labor bill anyway.

So I have a few questions if someone has answers.

First, is Piaggio still picking up the bill for parts if this one is indeed is leaking because of their screw-up with bolt length and incorrectly machined seals?

Second, does anyone have a full part list for a "proper fix"?

Third, I'm a fairly Ok dirt bike mechanic, rebuilt a bunch of CRF motors but I don't have any experience digging into anything but Honda CRFs. Looks to me this fix doesn't require any special tools and from looking at what's in the PDF for an NTX version (probably very similar?), this looks like maybe a day's worth of work if done for the first time? Is that about right?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Campagman]

Search some of my threads from 2010 ish. My 08 had the seal problem, short holes, long bolts, it’s a latent defect from Guzzi. I eventually got the money back from the dealer.
I have the bulletin somewhere. In the UK we can use the small claims process which I what I threatened.
It’s an engine out repair. Shops take a day minimum I expect

 

[Campagman]

Bulletin

 

[dakh]

Thank you so much Campagman! Pure gold, that document.

You got the money back even if the bike was out of warranty or it was still covered? I guess I'd have to talk to MotoI since US situation might be different. I have a compounding issue that it was them overfilling the oil that could have triggered this situation, so at least a little more sway.

Also, unless of course my bike already had this done and it's something else, I take it I should be doing this job anyway even if there's another leak coming from somewhere else that is actually the issue? As in, all of them were manufactured with this defect and just like the tappet issue, this should have just been a recall and every bike needs to go through this?

Thanks again, that was a warm welcome to the forum!

 

[dakh]

Oh, another thing, it leaks only when the engine is well warmed up. Zero leaking if the bike just sits. Is this consistent with the usual symptoms of this problem?

 

[john zibell]

At this point it really doesn't matter what the cause is. You need to fix it. You will need one special tool to center the clutch disk as the flywheel has to be removed to get at the seal and rear bearing carrier. Also a second tool is helpful to hold the flywheel while removing and installing it. Yes it will be an all day job the first time you go in. With practice it can be done quicker. To ascertain if your bolts are too long, you will need a vernier caliper to compare hole depth to bolt length.

 

[dakh]

Got it, thank you John. Is the centring special tool Guzzi specific or there's a generic/automotive version I can use? I do have a clutch basket holder that works on my dirt bikes, or one of those strap deals, not sure if that would work on this clutch since it is a different design from wet clutches on my Honda CRF race bikes I keep rebuilding motors on

Also, I take it you have actually done this right? I would be more confident taking this up if I can count on a little help from here if I get stuck.

 

[dakh]

Talked to Moto I mechanic. They are swamped and won't take this job until fall. He also said that they already worked in this bike and in their notes it states that the transmission plug is stripped and they had to JB-weld it. And there's no room to get this fixed without taking the motor out of the frame.

There's no local Guzzi mechanic that I know of that would touch this thing that I can think of. Wow, little did I know what I was stepping into, just got this bike and thought I'd be enjoying riding this thing the whole summer long. And the couple days I did ride it, I loved the bike! But alas, instead I'm looking at a multi-day project that I got no burning desire to take on :/

 

[dakh]

So now I need to start planning for doing this myself. MotoI has the parts so that's not a problem.

Couple questions if I may for those who have done this:

1. If I just use center stand and suspend the back of the bike from the ceiling joist with a tie-down, and use automotive rolling jack for the motor, would that work? Is the oil pan strong enough to support the motor weight?
2. How heavy is the motor anyway? I take it I'd have to first remove the swingarm, disconnect everything and then lower the motor from the frame and THEN I get to take the tranny off, correct?

I saw a post by someone who said it took them 3 days to do it for the first time, taking it slow and careful.

As you can tell I'm pretty bummed out, I thought I'm pretty good at picking used bikes but wow this one is a very unpleasant surprise.

At least it looks good!

 

[john zibell]

None of those dirt bike clutch tools will work for you on the Stelvio. I work with a lift so I'm not familiar with what you are proposing. From what you are saying I suggest you call several dealers and find one that can do it sooner. It would save you in the long run even if you have to ship the bike to them. Even contact Todd (site administrator) to see if he has time to do it at his shop in Orange CA. At least he is on the west coast.

 

[Campagman]

Thank you so much Campagman! Pure gold, that document.

You got the money back even if the bike was out of warranty or it was still covered? I guess I'd have to talk to MotoI since US situation might be different. I have a compounding issue that it was them overfilling the oil that could have triggered this situation, so at least a little more sway.

Also, unless of course my bike already had this done and it's something else, I take it I should be doing this job anyway even if there's another leak coming from somewhere else that is actually the issue? As in, all of them were manufactured with this defect and just like the tappet issue, this should have just been a recall and every bike needs to go through this?

Thanks again, that was a warm welcome to the forum!

You’re welcome
Money back was via the dealer that I bought the bike from, was a Guzzi dealer, whether they got anything from Piaggio I don’t know. The small claims process in the UK puts the responsibility on the dealer. He didn’t argue too much, but it did take 18 months to get the cash!

 

[Campagman]

Oh, another thing, it leaks only when the engine is well warmed up. Zero leaking if the bike just sits. Is this consistent with the usual symptoms of this problem?

I guess the oil level when static is well below the crank shaft, plus oil is thicker when cold. Also when hot all the metal parts expand.
The dealer who did mine said the bolts were only finger tight holding the seal assembly to the back of the engine.

 

[dakh]

Ok thanks, I'll call around some more. Turns out the old crew at Moto I is not there anymore. I am hesitant to get someone to do this job that isn't really experienced in these bikes. Will call around to see how much folks want for the labor on this, maybe I can haul it to Portland or something along those lines.

I'm pretty sure me and my crew of racing buddies can handle this job, but I'd rather be at the track or on my way to Idaho or California at the moment

 

[82'Guzziman]

Hey Dakh..
Just wanted to share.. You're not alone..I've been exactly where you are and it's a nasty bit of business, to get sorted..
I've been a customer of Moto Int. and Dave for decades.. When I spoke to him about what I was up against .. he replied "..What year is it?.. 09' you say'... Sounds like you need one on my O' Rings'.." we laughed.
Well the deal is apparently with these early bikes (I have the same one) .. that the O'Ring that seals the Oil Gallery' through the Rear Main & Seal Support Housing' is ever so slightly undersized from the Factory' and she tends to develop a leak.. Symptoms are just like a Real Main Seal Failure' on my Old Round Fin', but not necessarily .. I changed them all 'Dave's O'Ring' / Rear Main Seal & Housing Gasket'.. hasn't Leaked a Drop Since'.. though it drove me Crazy' for some time, before we figured it out..
To get at it, you need to pretty much disassemble the entire rear of the Bike'.. as well as at least Unbolt the Engine completely from the Chassis'.. Swingarm, Suspension, Starter, Trans, Clutch, Flywheel, Rear Main Bearing Support Housing.. All of it..
I worked off a Std. Hydraulic Bike Stand and Strung Up' the Rear from my overhead Gantry Hoist, then Supported the Mill' Independently on Flat Screw Type Engine Jack, so I could maneuver things around as reqrd. throughout the operation.. It's nasty
Not to mention you have to be very careful pulling the Engine Mount Bolts', as they're assembled rather Dry' it seems and the Threads like to come up with the Bolts'.. Careful'..
The upside is all the Parts', Inclusive of Shipping' to Canada' were just over $20 USD.. So I bought (2) O'Rings' .. Gave 1 to my Local Dealer, with the explanation.. He'd probably need it one day & No' .. I wasn't going to help him change it'.. I keep the Original' on my Key Chain' for 'Story Time Stand Arounds'.. The Pictures really Tell It'.. I'll try to post a couple or drop me a message.. they'll be easier to email I'm sure, if you like..
Hope that helps you somewhat & Best of Luck' with it..
'Shiney Side Up'
Cheers'

 

[dakh]

Hey Dakh..
Just wanted to share.. You're not alone..I've been exactly where you are and it's a nasty bit of business, to get sorted..
I've been a customer of Moto Int. and Dave for decades.. When I spoke to him about what I was up against .. he replied "..What year is it?.. 09' you say'... Sounds like you need one on my O' Rings'.." we laughed.
Well the deal is apparently with these early bikes (I have the same one) .. that the O'Ring that seals the Oil Gallery' through the Rear Main & Seal Support Housing' is ever so slightly undersized from the Factory' and she tends to develop a leak.. Symptoms are just like a Real Main Seal Failure' on my Old Round Fin', but not necessarily .. I changed them all 'Dave's O'Ring' / Rear Main Seal & Housing Gasket'.. hasn't Leaked a Drop Since'.. though it drove me Crazy' for some time, before we figured it out..
To get at it, you need to pretty much disassemble the entire rear of the Bike'.. as well as at least Unbolt the Engine completely from the Chassis'.. Swingarm, Suspension, Starter, Trans, Clutch, Flywheel, Rear Main Bearing Support Housing.. All of it..
I worked off a Std. Hydraulic Bike Stand and Strung Up' the Rear from my overhead Gantry Hoist, then Supported the Mill' Independently on Flat Screw Type Engine Jack, so I could maneuver things around as reqrd. throughout the operation.. It's nasty
Not to mention you have to be very careful pulling the Engine Mount Bolts', as they're assembled rather Dry' it seems and the Threads like to come up with the Bolts'.. Careful'..
The upside is all the Parts', Inclusive of Shipping' to Canada' were just over $20 USD.. So I bought (2) O'Rings' .. Gave 1 to my Local Dealer, with the explanation.. He'd probably need it one day & No' .. I wasn't going to help him change it'.. I keep the Original' on my Key Chain' for 'Story Time Stand Arounds'.. The Pictures really Tell It'.. I'll try to post a couple or drop me a message.. they'll be easier to email I'm sure, if you like..
Hope that helps you somewhat & Best of Luck' with it..
'Shiney Side Up'
Cheers'

Thank you Guzziman. Do you know how one would get one of those "Dave O-rings"? My understanding is Dave retired. Did you have the special tool for clutch plate compression (??? -- I can't yet envision what it does other than I know it's difficult to take the pressure off clutch springs without it).

It looks more and more likely that I'll be taking this on, with some help from friends. So yes, whatever you have that will prepare me for what I'll have to face, I'd love to have it. guzzitech@azazello.net is an e-mail that'll work. Thanks in advance!

 

[82'Guzziman]

Thank you Guzziman. Do you know how one would get one of those "Dave O-rings"? My understanding is Dave retired. Did you have the special tool for clutch plate compression (??? -- I can't yet envision what it does other than I know it's difficult to take the pressure off clutch springs without it).

It looks more and more likely that I'll be taking this on, with some help from friends. So yes, whatever you have that will prepare me for what I'll have to face, I'd love to have it. guzzitech@azazello.net is an e-mail that'll work. Thanks in advance!

Hey Dakh,
Sorry, I tried to reply with a couple Photo's to get things Rollin' .. but I'm very lame' at coming to teView attachment 14928 rms with how to participate correctly here.. responding to an email incorrectly.. ..though I do really want to try and help you out..
See how it goes this time.. I've tried to load a couple Shots' for you.. Seems they're not in Order' but you get it..
The Bike has to become this Apart'.. I could find No Way Around It'..
The Shot of the Rear Bearing Retainer' contains the little Shitter' O' Ring' Top Left' btwn. the Fastening Flanges'..
That's Dave's O'Ring's New Home'..
Then Back Together again.. Haven't had a Single Drop of Oil out of it Since.. but you're going to earn every bit of that New Pride'..
Sorry once again my fingers are just too big and my glasses not good enough..
I'm not sure at this point how to have you contact me otherwise, but we'll get there..
Cheers'

 

[82'Guzziman]

... Sorry again.. Here's the One'..

 

[dakh]

Mobody in the area wants to do the job and I don't want to ship the bike. So I bought the gasket and o-ring plus Loctite 510 as per service bulletin, this clutch tool from mgcycle http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=80&products_id=2618 and an M10x1.5 timesert to fix the busted up transmission drain bolt. Will start working on it next week. Wish me luck!

 

[dakh]

I have access to a lathe so if I need to hog out that o-ring groove from 1mm to 1.5mm, I can do that no problem.

 

[john zibell]

Mobody in the area wants to do the job and I don't want to ship the bike. So I bought the gasket and o-ring plus Loctite 510 as per service bulletin, this clutch tool from mgcycle http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=80&products_id=2618 and an M10x1.5 timesert to fix the busted up transmission drain bolt. Will start working on it next week. Wish me luck!

Be sure to get that time sert good and square in the case so the washer and plug will give a good seal.