Heavy clutch 8V engines

[Ad B]

Hi,

As some of you know, I have an adorable Griso 1200 8V.
I love that piece of machinery as I loved my Harley before.
But... (oh dear...)
As I'm NOT a guy who's visiting a sportsschool, gym offen... or ever...
I also can't bend iron with bare hands...
So it's clear I'm not a Schwarzenegger type (in his good days...). :mrgreen:
Now you know (a part of) me…

My G12.
He came on the road in 2009, build in 2007.
I adore this bike, but…
What do you (other Guzzi riders) think of the force to engage the clutch?
On my Griso it’s heavy, to heavy.
I felt clutches on 2v engines, they were pretty light.
On other 4v engine also heavy, but…
Yes, again a but.
A bit more than a week ago I was visiting a large Dutch Guzzi dealer.
Two Stelvios were standing along each other, one from 2008 the other from 2011, new.
At the new one, the clutch was pretty light and comfortable.
The 2008 Stelvio, like my Griso heavy and not comfy.

Does somebody know what is changed on the clutch and or clutch master cylinder
(or slave cylinder…) at the new Stelvio and other 8v engines,
so the clutch engages light (much lighter than the 2008 version)?
Little note: that 2011 Stelvio also had a larger oil cooler than its 2008 opponent.
When you know the differences, please with part numbers.. :dry:
I don’t have parts lists of the new engines. :S

Thanks.
Ad B

 

[draidt]

Have you bled the Hydraulic system ?

 

[Penis Rotor]

I think they *may* of changed the spring rate on later clutches but having said that I don't think there is a part # supercession for any clutch parts.

There IS a mod involving a second thrust bearing for any early bikes that have a noisy or increasingly heavy clutch pull. Has yours got worse or has it always just been heavy?

Pete

 

[Ad B]

Hi,

Have you bled the Hydraulic system ?

No, but I have no air in my system.
As far as I know, air is easyer to compress as engaging the clutch itself.

I think they *may* of changed the spring rate on later clutches but having said that I don't think there is a part # supercession for any clutch parts.
There IS a mod involving a second thrust bearing for any early bikes that have a noisy or increasingly heavy clutch pull. Has yours got worse or has it always just been heavy?
Pete

My clutch has been always that heavy, as far as I can remember or remember the feeling...
But adding that second thrust bearing, can't result in a lighter clutch pull when the engine is not running? Am I right?
A lighter spring rate could be the reason, but I don't have any data or read from it.

In the coming weeks I'm going to clean my system and checking the easyist parts.
Trying to discover if something is wrong.
I'm also going to try a radial master cylinder, a master cylinder from a Aprilia RSV1000.

But if anyone know more or think to know more, please write it here.
Not only for me, but for other Guzzista too. I won't be the onlyone with that "problem".
I will keep you posted of my hopefully progress.

Ad B

 

[Phang]

My MY2009 G8VSE clutch felt heaviest amongst the bikes that I have rode/owned.

Lubing the lever’s pivot bolt and pin on a regular basis will bring it to a much manageable level. I do this to all my bikes at 10,000km interval but the fat goose clutch lever will get stiff after 5,000km probably due to the higher stress to all the sliding parts. So, I clean and lube the Griso’s levers every 5,000km. It took less than half an hour.

Alternatively, put this beside your favorite arm chair and do 50 strokes whenever there is a commercial break on your TV. It will make you think that the clutch is broken the next time when you ride your bike.

Phang

 

[Will]

Valeo? I didn't know they'd branched out into clutch improvements....I thought they only made starter motors for Guzzis!

 

[Ad B]

Hi,

My MY2009 G8VSE clutch felt heaviest amongst the bikes that I have rode/owned.
...
Alternatively, put this beside your favorite arm chair and do 50 strokes whenever there is a commercial break on your TV. It will make you think that the clutch is broken the next time when you ride your bike.

Phang

Thanks for your advices, Phang.
But that last hint... mmm... I don't think that will be my solution. :S
I don't wanna become a Schwarzenegger type... , I have to buy all new clothing too...

Lubing those moving parts is one of the check points I have to do.
But I'm doing that a few times a year, a regular maintenance issue.
It's on my list now.
What I found out till now.
Via a German forum I've got a few links with nice part lists.
We think, that a lower spring rate is used in younger 8V engines.
The spring parts are not available as a part in the part list.
And doing the whole clutch, is way to expensive. :?
I'm waiting for the arrival of the Aprillia RSV radial clutch pump,
hoping that this will give me a lighter to engage clutch.

Or I have to go for the Schwarzenegger type... B)

Ad B

 

[Ad B]

Hi,

as you could read above, I wanted to change my clutch. :dry:
I chose to change the master cylinders on my G12, I went for radial master cylinders.
I bought through ebay a used clutch and brake master cylinder from a Aprilia RSV 1000 '04-'08.
They are also used on a few Ducati's.
With the original Guzzi clutch master cylinder I measered I had to pull 12 kg hmy: .
After the change measering the same way, ofcourse, I had to pull 10 kg.
The actual numbers aren't important but the difference is. That's 16,6 % less!! :mrgreen:
I tried the clutch with running machine in my garage (bike on the stand) and this looks and feels good.
I still have to try my Griso on the road, but it will have to wait.
We have winter conditions here now.
Quite cold (-10°C) and a lot of salt on the roads. Later this day, snow is expected.
I won't let my lovely G12 eat salt...
So, my love has to wait for the start of spring time.

Here are a few pictures of my "build"...




I'm very satisfied with this result :whistle: .
Ad B

 

[Phang]

Well done Ad B

I have some questions.

Do the Aprilia brake and clutch master cylinders come with mirror mount?

Can the stock hydraulic lines be reused? If yes, any fitting problem in terms of length and angle of the banjo fittings?

Cheers,
Phang

 

[Ad B]

Hi Phang,

No, There are no mirror mounts on the master cylinders.
I bought two of these and sprayed them grey...:

And I used the original brake lines, but used two of the following parts
(one on the brake side and one on the clutch side)


The mirror mount I've ordered at a Dutch (internet) company.
The HEL brakeline adapters from GTM.

Ad B

Oeps...
And I had to change the connectors from the brake lamp switch and safety switch at the clutch master
to wire them at the loom. :mrgreen:

 

[Phang]

Neat little gadgets, thanks Ad B

 

[gdp]

Thank you, Ad B, very much for this info, very helpful....By the way, approximately how much IS a new clutch for 09 Stelvio? And, do I
Have to specify to Guzzi that I want the 'later' clutch assembly, or, do they automatically send that (newer) version? Again, thanks....

 

[Penis Rotor]

New clutch assy part #976695.

Dunno how much it will cost you if you're in the US.

Pete

 

[Ad B]

Hi,

Yes Pete, that's the new number.
On the site from a German Guzzi man in Berlin, Wendel Motorräder Berlin, it will set you back € 473.30 In Europe...
That's about US $ 622,- for this clutch.
wendelmotorraeder.de
Ad B

 

[Penis Rotor]

$678 in Oz, (+10% GST.) hat might even be dealer cost, haven't checked. Not really terrifically ecpensive. Most car clutches which are produced in much higher numbers run out to much the same.

Pete

 

[Ad B]

Hi,

mmm, I not used to those amounts.
In the past years, I played with the clutch of my Harley... (sorry...)
New plates, springs, pressure plate cost me around €150,-
5-plate; 6-plate; Kevlar... I tried several in the last 6 years.
But when it costs around €500,- the playing stops... :mrgreen:

Ad B

 

[Brian UK]

The new Stelvio/Norge clutch is a totally new design, single plate with diaphragm spring.

 

[Ad B]

Hi Brian,

as far as I know, it's not a new design.
All the 8V engines have single plate clutch with spring parts, "belleville springs" Guzzi call it.
Together, these spring parts form the diafragm spring.
The newer engines, with a light to engage clutch, have lichter "belleville" springs.
But these parts aren't on the Guzzi partslist, you have to buy a complete clutch.
And it's quite a job before you have these clutch parts in your hands...

Ad B

 

[Ad B]

Hi,

as I described before, I mounted a Aprilia radial clutch and brake master cylinder on my G12.
The brake is working very smooth now and still very good, I even can control it better.
It doesn't have óne very hard point, where it has to happen all. I have more room to control.
To engage the clutch, it worked better, much better.
But pulling that 10 Kg force I mentioned before, was still a bit hard for me. :S
On a 200 km countryroad trip, my left hand wasn't happy, it did hurt a bit.

So, like a German Guzzi driver did, I bought a Magura 13 mm radial clutch master cylinder. :idea:
Mine was used, it came from a KTM Superduke.
I had to rebuild it, KTM uses mineral oil in his clutch master cylinder, I needed to fill DOT4 (5.1). B)
A new piston and rubber set had to do it.
I mounted this KTM (Magura) clutch master cylinder this week and yesterday I did a test drive.
The clutch is still working fine, the engine is still rolling freely and I can put my gears in neutral very easy.
This morning I measered the force to engage the clutch now,
in the same way I did before with the Original(non radial) and Aprilia radial cilinder.
Now I had to pull 8-9 kg to engage the clutch, so again it's easyer.
I think I can live with this.
Now I am satisfied with my controls and the working of my brakes and clutch.
The looks of this all is very good, as you can see at the pictures I posted before in this topic.
The KTM (Magura) clutch master cylinder looks nearly the same as the Aprilia (Brembo) one, the levers too.
Yes, I'm satisfied now.

Ad B

 

[umtys]

An old topic , just wanted to share my experiences about Wendel Berlin. I made an order from their site before my short Berlin trip to pick up from store without paying at all (payed at store) .Paul was very helpful he did everything for me to get my items with German correctness although I arrived at an early hour , well packaged for flight so I could be able to return without damage in my wind screen for V7 Special. I highly recommend Wendel.
Say my greetings to Paul if you get in touch with him.
Umit