Help with mods on my 1200 Sport

[dragonknee]

I have a question for anyone that has done this sort of work. I had gotten a flash from GTM for my 1200 sport and decided to do some up grades and maintenance as the bike was running very rich and it was time. The new parts came from a Norge. It had the air box cut in a few ways shown in the picture and had the pipe pictured on it . I don't know what else was done to the Norge (ie. flashed or whatever) as there is no one to ask as the prior owner died. I don't know which mods are witchcraft or which work best... so...My question is should I use the mods (the middle plate and top) that are in the pictures on my box in my 1200 sport with the K&N and put them on my bike with the GT pipe pictured as the prior owner had done to his? Or should I go with the stock middle plate and my top with the snorkel out...My current airbox is just stock with a stock filter and the snorkel pulled out pictured with the mesh to keep the mice out. I would love to have one of your lids Todd but have spent this years extra on the pipe and such...Maybe next year if you have them. Thanks

 

[john zibell]

If your bike runs well as is I'd recommend not making any changes. If you do change intake and exhuast the map for your ECU will need to be changed. Since you already have a GTM flash, I suggest you use the contact tab in the store and ask what any changes would entail.

 

[dragonknee]

My bike ran ok with the flash and the aftermarket pipe (Pictured below) with the stock filter and the snorkel on it , but it ran very rich and only got 29-31 mpg and had a odd pop when cruising. I was told when I bought bike that the valves were adjusted by the seller and the bike only had 9000 miles on it so I was comfortable with that. When writing Todd and asking he mentioned the valves and other things needing to be done so I decided to pulled the plugs and the were fairly black and replaced them and did a valve adjust and replaced the fuel filter as it was the plastic/metal filter and found a folded intake boot that was allowing air into the right cylinder throttle body and maybe the cause of the slight popping that I heard. I wrote GT again and asked about the snorkel and was told to pull the snorkel and after the email that's when the new parts that I pictured above came along and that were off a Norge as I said and I bought them and had noticed the differences in the airbox which created all the thoughts I was having. So the reason for my post was to find out if this was a normal mod by others or if others had had similar issues or thoughts on any of this. I'm swapping pipes from the aftermarket one pictured below to Todd's (the one pictured above in first post) and I am getting ready to put the tank back on and I am trying to decide which airbox set up and filter to use. Again what I was after with my questions was if anyone on here who had done this before and might know something about the mods that were made to the parts above in the picture that I just got and the results of the mods to their bikes. I did notice that there is a new or I didn't notice it before sentence in the contact page on the main section that says "We do not offer Tech Support via email; Please see our GuzziTech.com Forums linked below." and so that was why I posted this query... Thanks for the response...

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Ok...

You got a response from an expert Moto Guzzi mechanic, John Zibell. His advice was rock solid. You just completely discarded it. Ok...

I am a motorcycle mechanic with my own shop and have wrenched motorcycles for 40 years. I also own a 1200 Sport. I agree with John. You may disregard that too but I’m trying to get through to you.

Aside from a MPH hard start relay, my motorcycle is bone stock and runs absolutely perfect in every regard.

Your popping was almost certainly caused by an air leak as you discovered. You are never going to eliminate that popping 100% no matter what you do.

So...questions time.

Why would you want to try and shoehorn a chopped up Norge airbox into your 1200 Sport? What are you hoping for?

In fact, for the life of me, I cannot figure what you think you have accomplished by yanking the snorkel off of your stock assembly other than to ease ingress of water into the intake, and to create undesired air turbulence at the intake.

The purpose of an airbox is to be a Helmholtz resonator. It is to SMOOTH the airflow as it enters the intake and combustion chamber.

Unless you are going to go for a full monty setup which can dynamically adapt fueling, (i.e. Todd's (GTM) PowerCommander and Autotune setup in the STORE), there is no reason at all to screw with the airbox. You will gain nothing and lose a great deal.

So I ask, what is your goal? What are you hoping to accomplish?

That dictates what you do, how you do it, and why and not whether or not you should try and use some hacked up parts which were not designed for your model because you think they might give you something, when in reality, they do more harm than good.

It’s truly curious on how this stuff comes in waves here.

Over the last several days, there seems to be an onslaught of people who cannot stop thinking that they need to hack their air boxes up (or use hacked up air boxes) for some unfounded and non-specific reason.

As I said, without dynamic fueling modifications, you will gain nothing and in fact, you will most certainly do more harm to the running and performance of your motorcycle.

Again what I was after with my questions was if anyone on here who had done this before and might know something about the mods that were made to the parts above in the picture that I just got and the results of the mods to their bikes.

Somebody hacked that stuff up because they thought they were getting something out of it. I assure you 100%, they didn't. In fact, I guarantee that they lost power and torque by doing so.

There is a right way to do modifications and a wrong way. That is not the right way.

As I said, unless you can locate a proper air box lid modification plate like the ones Todd made, with the proper bell shape so as to SMOOTH airflow, AND you are installing a GTM designed PowerCommander and Autotune with Todd's modified mapping with his Flash Tool, then you will gain nothing and in fact, cause poorer running.


I hope this might help you out a bit.

The 1200 Sport is an awesome motorcycle and I’d hate to see you mickey yours up doing crazy stuff like this.

 

[dragonknee]

Whoa there big fella, First off I never said I was going to do any of the above mods that the prior owner of the parts had done nor did I say anywhere that I was disregarding Johns thoughts. This is why I dislike asking questions on the internet as things get misconstrued and then all hell breaks loose and you have politics today... He made his thoughts known and I tried to answer his thoughts as best I could as his thoughts didn't answer my question. You take the answer as a disregard and then you get into it and say I can disregard yours as well if I so choose... SO... Hold your horses and realize that I'm in search of answers and not conflict and last I looked Todd is in the business of modifying stock bikes to run better and that is my hope for my bike and that is why I sought info on this site to gleem the info to move forward.

1) Up till now I have only followed Jim Hamlins advice about getting the flash from Todd and so I did.
2) I ordered the flash and the tuner box from Guzzitech for doing the install and maintenance to the bike from Todd. He asked me what was done to the bike and I told him stock air filter, aftermarket pipe of unknown manufacturer and flash.
3) I wrote to Todd and asked him about the snorkel as my bike was running really very rich and getting poor gas mileage and in the email that was sent back to me it told me that all his flashes are done with having the snorkel out and that is what led me to taking it off the airbox. I thought that I would try it and see which worked best from his ideas.
4) After just buying all the extras off another bike and explaining that I had no idea why the prior owner did what he did to that air box, I again asked if that was anything logical about it and if others knew about doing these things to it and basically if there was any reason for it.
5) My goal is to install the Guzzi Tech pipe and collector which Todd sells and the best combo for what I have is and made that a point above when I asked for help with the whole project.
6) At the very least I was going to just install the pipe and run the airbox as Todd had told me to do and maybe the K&N as well. Since rule on the contact page is to come here with questions and that they will no longer answer tech questions by email and there is no phone to call the shop at.... I came here hoping for advice and not to be belittled for my questions.

So, all I can say is that if you reread the post I made and try to look at it as a answer to Johns post and again in a different way hoping to get more answers to the questions that is my problem then I'm not sure what to say after this. Understand that if I could call Todd and walk thru this with him as its his flash, his pipe and y pipe and his suggestion to remove the snorkel then I wouldn't even need to post here. I understand that without a proper chat that its hard to put all your thoughts down like you could if you were talking face to face so I get it. I'm looking for help and not conflict. Thanks

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Um, whoa yourself big fella.

I didn't offer one iota of conflict. No hell broke loose and certainly no politics were interjected.

"I agree with John. You may disregard that too but I’m trying to get through to you" is not meant as confrontational. It simply states that I'm trying to send you a message that I hope you hear, even though I agree with the man who sent you a replay and you didn't acknowledge anything he wrote you.

I was especially careful with my words and phrases and in fact, I edited it a couple times to soften it and refine it.

I read very carefully the critical things you wrote and the questions you asked.

I have a question for anyone that has done this sort of work.



(I) decided to do some up grades and maintenance as the bike was running very rich and it was time. The new parts came from a Norge.



I don't know which mods are witchcraft or which work best... so...My question is should I use the mods (the middle plate and top) that are in the pictures on my box in my 1200 sport with the K&N and put them on my bike with the GT pipe pictured as the prior owner had done to his? Or should I go with the stock middle plate and my top with the snorkel out...



My bike ran ok with the flash and the aftermarket pipe (Pictured below) with the stock filter and the snorkel on it , but it ran very rich and only got 29-31 mpg and had a odd pop when cruising



(I) found a folded intake boot that was allowing air into the right cylinder throttle body and maybe the cause of the slight popping that I heard.



I wrote GT again and asked about the snorkel and was told to pull the snorkel and after the email that's when the new parts that I pictured above came along and that were off a Norge as I said and I bought them and had noticed the differences in the airbox which created all the thoughts I was having.



So the reason for my post was to find out if this was a normal mod by others or if others had had similar issues or thoughts on any of this.



I am trying to decide which airbox set up and filter to use.



Again what I was after with my questions was if anyone on here who had done this before and might know something about the mods that were made to the parts above in the picture that I just got and the results of the mods to their bikes.



I did notice that there is a new or I didn't notice it before sentence in the contact page on the main section that says "We do not offer Tech Support via email; Please see our GuzziTech.com Forums linked below." and so that was why I posted this query... Thanks for the response...

Although you wrote a lot of that after John wrote you, you didn't really comment at all on what he had shared with you. I'm sorry, I interpreted that as you didn't agree or that it didn't suit your purposes. I simply stated that I agreed with John and then I proceeded to address the issues and information you wrote. You asked for thoughts. I gave them to you in detail. You didn't like the message. This is a million miles from acting like I attacked you.

What I tried to do was explain to you was that John said, if it runs great, best to sit pat. I said the same thing unless you were able to go the distance on the full monty setup (a setup I have on my 1200 Stelvio and am intimately familiar with and I also own a 1200 Sport so I am somewhat versed on its intricacies and operational performance) .

I then tried to explain what you were looking at in terms of what you had bought airbox wise, and that it would be certain that you would degrade performance unless you had modified fueling to go with the changes, albeit that that airbox was not a realistic change in the right direction for the reasons I explained. My point was that airboxes have a very important function that most people do not realize and that this function is directly related to performance both in terms of power and torque, but more importantly, in rideability.

However, the most important place I was trying to lead you to was to clearly identify what is was that you were trying to achieve by contemplating these changes in the first place. This is because as I explained, this would dictate your logical next moves.

If I could get you to identify this desired outcome, then that is much more addressable in giving you good information than offering anecdotal commentary on a configuration that quite likely (using a modified Norge airbox in a 1200 Sport) virtually 1 or maybe 2 if we got really really really lucky, but most likely nobody is gong to have experience with what you are contemplating. That was all. I felt that it was better to share with you honestly what you were looking at and what you could expect from duplicating it.

First off I never said I was going to do any of the above mods that the prior owner of the parts had done nor did I say anywhere that I was disregarding Johns thoughts.

I'm sorry, but I thought that you clearly stated that you had these parts, you were contemplating using these parts, and you specifically asked if you should use them or go with your stock stuff. That's how I read your writings in bold up there.

I didn't try to cause you angst and I certainly don't mean any conflict whatsoever. I was trying to help you. I apologize it didn't come out to you the way I presented it. You take my directness with regard to the outcome of using things like that versus the correct selections, for belittling. Nothing could be more unfounded. In fact, I tried to summarize the whole discussion with,

"Somebody hacked that stuff up because they thought they were getting something out of it. I assure you 100%, they didn't. In fact, I guarantee that they lost power and torque by doing so.

There is a right way to do modifications and a wrong way. That is not the right way.

As I said, unless you can locate a proper air box lid modification plate like the ones Todd made, with the proper bell shape so as to SMOOTH airflow, AND you are installing a GTM designed PowerCommander and Autotune with Todd's modified mapping with his Flash Tool, then you will gain nothing and in fact, cause poorer running.

I hope this might help you out a bit. "

I don't know how you took this as belittling but again, I apologize I made you feel that way as that was never my intention.

Lastly, that statement by Todd about not providing email tech support and no phone calls has been up there for years. If he didn't do that, he would spend literally all day on the telephone answering questions for free and his business would go bankrupt. Guaranteed.

This isn't a social media platform. It's a very different and special place. Several of us are pretty good at this stuff and we try our hardest to be helpful. With regard to myself, I admittedly struggle greatly with non-verbal communication, and I work very hard on it here. I guess that's why I write so much. I'm trying to get better at it. I'm sorry my clumsiness got in the way of the message.

FWIW - My signature talks about it: "Very direct and to the point individual. Non-personal non-verbal internet communication often bewilders me." I guess I would have thought that being here for 12 years, you would have seen a post or two of mine and gotten an idea of how I tend to communicate. That is a bad assumption on my part no doubt. Again, apologies.

So, in closing, all you need to know is contained in those three rotating screens at the top, above the 3 dots. There are numerous forums on this topic in one form or another. SEARCH is always recommenced before starting a new thread, and there is virtually no topic that you can bring up that hasn't been covered.

Please forgive me and I'll leave you to do your thing.

Best wishes.

 

[dragonknee]

I must say that when it comes to a long posts we are both doing some good work. Let me fill in some blanks and say I appreciate the extra time spent on this site helping others with answers when you can...but I'm trying to fix all the issues that were left to me by the last owner of the bike and upgrades that I wanted to do since I have had the bike. One of the main problems is that I live in the middle of nowhere and have no place out here that has any idea what a Guzzi is. One person that has been really helpful is Jim Hamlin at Hamlin's cycle as he is willing to walk me thru many issues that I have no idea how to accomplish fixs and parts and in real time... SO that being said the reality of dealing with the websites and not face to face makes it hard to say everything that should or would be said if it were in person or on the phone as I said above. I feel that as in politics and other issues in life that people can communicate better and things are not so lost in translation. I have no desire to create issues but just to get some answers.

Really all I wanted to know out of the post was:
A) Had anyone seen these kind of mods down to the top of the airbox and the middle lid? Seems not
B)Would the afore mentioned mods work? also seems not
C) Would it be better to stick with the pipe and the stock filter to mimic what I already had with the snorkel out to lean it out a bit?

I have no access to a dyno and since I have had friends come up behind me after the flash when riding and they said that the gas smell when I got on it was strong I wondered what I could do to change it. When I wrote to Todd I was trying to get a idea on what my next step to lean it out a bit was and he said take the snorkel out. I have to listen as he did the work for the flash.
I guess for now I will mount the pipe and leave the stock filter in and try it without the snorkel and see how it goes. Again I feel it is easy to feel slighted on a website when your really already frustrated with difficulties getting things sorted out. I'm not a 40 year long mechanic and I work in the hospital pharmacy and I'm not a mechanic. I am teaching myself to work on my bike by using youtube and manuals and it can be frustrating for sure. I use to pay people to do bike work for me as I owned Japanese bikes mostly and there were lots of people out here that work on them and I made way more money. I don't have a local person in my town that actually owns or has worked on a Guzzi so that is why I'm posting here and looking for answers. Long story short is Guzzi's are cool as hell and I enjoy them and just want to get things sorted out and ride. Thanks for the answers.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Absolutely.

Best of luck and best wishes. Hope to see you here more often.

 

[john zibell]

Here is the thing. You didn't give much detail on what you were planning in your first post or your bikes running condition. We therefore didn't have much to go on and gave you generic answers. Since you already have products from Todd, adding the GTM pipe is easy and you just need to contact him for the updated map for you new configuration of your machine. If you then have issues (like your running rich) contact the Store or direct e-mail for a revised map.

 

[GTM®]

Thanks John & Scott. Early on, I did mail in ECU flashes, and didn’t keep records of every one. So…

@dragonknee - I cannot communicate here on every post, so do not call me out here directly with questions. I send people here for help on service and related questions. You have a ~15 year old motorcycle with unknown service history. Almost every conceivable question on those is answered here.
From there, if you have a GT Flash tool like this one;

GT MotoCycles 5AM/7SM ECU Re-flash Tool

GT MotoCycles® ECU Re-Flash Tool PAID PRE-ORDER ONLY - SLOW TO SHIP - ALLOW 6~10 WEEKS Our new touch-screen Flash Tool (FT) programmer for ECU "map" updating for modern big block Guzzi; Bellagio, Breva 1100, Cal Vin, Norge 2V/4V, 1200 Sport 2V/4V, Griso 1100/1200-8V and Stelvio (all...

gtmotocycles.com

I likely can be of help (but not for free), when and ONLY when the bike has been properly set up and serviced with no other running issues. Lean/rich running is done with science and dyno data. I do not revise maps based on smell and plug colors. All of my maps have been very well proven, and only on rare instances can be improved upon. This is why I offer and sell the Power Commander and AutoTune as an add-on. It’s not cheap, but it is an amazingly good tool that I can remote tune YOUR bike outside of the notes at the top. It can easily fix poor running issues related to mods provided the bike is in spec with all service items including electronic only TPS reset.

 

[dragonknee]

My bike ran well and has 10000 miles on it and the valves have just been recheck and were in spec. The new plugs were installed and a fresh stock air cleaner is installed. I have put fresh premium non-ethanol gas in. I have the GTM flash tool and have used it to reset the TPS and install my first flash Todd a while back. I have not ran the bike since replacing the throttle body boots or doing the valve adjust and plugs. My latest email from GTM when asking about premium and the snorkel was that I should remove the snorkel and use premium fuel and that is what I will do for sure. This was all done before I received the extra parts and the weird airbox that was in with all the parts that I bought, I wasn't sure about it and that was the main point of my posting to see if it was witchcraft or reality. Never wanted to install or use the Norge box but was curious about the mods made....So...At this point I'm interested in the installing of the GTM pipe and the K&N if it is a good idea over stock filter and if need be with leaving everything else as is. I wasn't in anyway trying to disregard anyone's advice or be a keyboard warrior but more trying to provide more details as I still had questions. Honestly I don't know John or Scott personally and had no idea what their background's were and understanding who is giving you advice helps. Honestly posts and texts can be taken wrong or right easily and quickly which derails the whole process for sure. I guess what I really would have hoped for from those in the know was more of a discussion with questions so that I could provide more answers with thoughts and that I could walk thru my issues and understand what I was looking at and what should be done. It seems when in the middle of doing things when you really have only a basic concept of what your changing it helps a lot to have those that are in the know asking questions so that I might better explain myself and not get off to the wrong start with anyone. I need your help and really you guys don't need mine, so my bad... I realize that. Lets start this over. I will assume that adding the pipe with the current flash and the snorkel removed should be a start with minimal effect to the running? Todd I understand you do this for a living and I have bought much from you so far for this bike and have been happy with it and became a contributor to keep things rolling. Understand that with minimal background in tuning and mechanics its a bit frustrating when issues arise and you just want to ride before the rains and the snows fly.
Thanks for any and all help and I will try to be more forthright with info when asking my questions.

 

[M0T0Geezer]

There is considerable information about the Moto Guzzi Norge in this on-line text file I developed when I owned mine. It contains links to other on-line files such as Parts List, Electrical Diagrams, Shop Manuals etc.

Or the full URL here:
dansher.com/bikepix/Guzzi/Norge1200/Norge_2007_fyi.txt