How important was "made in Italy" to you?

[Sannio]

If a Guzzi I wanted were made and assembled anywhere but in Italy, I would not buy it. I accept that components and electronics are sourced internationally. I am happy knowing that designers and engineers are of any origin. This goes for all Italian-brand motorbikes. Suppose company ownership of a brand leaves Italy but the marque is still manufactured in an Italian factory. In that case, I must feel the fiz for a particular model to buy it. An "Italian motorcycle" is a regionally born cultural artifact birthed by passionate and beautifully imperfect people of Italic lineage.

 

[Tebax]

I am wary of disagreeing with Scott -- at least on any subject involving automotive or culinary subjects, and the list is likely longer, too -- but we had a 2020 Honda Fit that was made in Mexico. That car was flawless in fit, finish, and all mechanical aspects during the three-plus years and 50K+ miles we owned it.

The same with its stablemate -- a 2009 Fit made in Japan -- which we still have, that sports an odo with almost 300K miles . An asshat turned in front of Kathi in Erie last September in a 90-mph closing speed crash that totaled it or it would sit outside in N.C. where we are are house-, dog-, an cat-sitting instead of the CR-V that replaced it.

That last is a very fine car, but if Honda still sold the Fit in the NA market, we'd have replaced it with another. Sadly,the 6th-gen Fit is only sold in Asia and Europe as the "Jazz." Honda still makes the HR-V and other models of cars and motorcycles in Mexico. I would not hesitate to buy a Honda assembled there.

Still, my favorite of the many cars in my past was -- surprise -- made in Italy: a 1976 Fiat 131.

Bought it in Virginia; shipped it to Italy , drove it there and all over western Europe for tree years, brought it back to the U.S.; sold it with 215K miles for a larger car need for our larger family. Great machine.

Bill

I thought the Honda car was named Fitta?
Anyhow, the European name is apparently Jazz.
Although I thought it was just in Sweden it was called Jazz.
Because in Sweden the name Fitta is equivalent to the English under the belt word “female/cat thingy”

 

[Tebax]

If a Guzzi I wanted were made and assembled anywhere but in Italy, I would not buy it. I accept that components and electronics are sourced internationally. I am happy knowing that designers and engineers are of any origin. This goes for all Italian-brand motorbikes. Suppose company ownership of a brand leaves Italy but the marque is still manufactured in an Italian factory. In that case, I must feel the fiz for a particular model to buy it. An "Italian motorcycle" is a regionally born cultural artifact birthed by passionate and beautifully imperfect people of Italic lineage.

I have owned an Alfa Romeo 156 (2001)a decade-ish ago.
A neighbor commented it when looking closer to it:
“It is not reliable with its Italian electrical system” he said.
I replied:
“Well, yes, Alfa Romeo have asked the world wide used manufacturer Bosch specifically to build in flaws in parts they deliver to Alfa Romeo”.

All electrical parts for motor managing system was Bosch made in that generation…
Electrical motors like for wind shield wipers etc are same parts used for many other brands.
I had also a Fiat Stilo of same early millennium generation, with an unusual semi stiff (oil filled) rear axel bushings.
It seemed quirky to me at first, but then I found out that the exact same design was used in the VW Golf same time or just a few years before.
Well, people like to spill their guts on smaller brands, especially on Italian brands…
Granted AR had some rust buckets in the 60’s and 70’s, but my AR 156 was considered mid range in safety, rust resistance, and reliability from the government reports. So a car with average reliability, but both a good looking and good driver car.

As I am a first time MG owner I am not worried one bit with my choice, nor do I have reasons for it.
MG uses top end parts for the new V100 in respect the electrical management system, brakes and suspension.
And they are the most experienced manufacturer with regards to drive shafts on motorcycles I imagine as it’s their signum next to the engine V configuration.

 

[South Westerly]

Yep it was the Jazz in the UK as well. Also had an Alfa Romeo back in the early 90's and it was a nice car to drive. Totally reliable and its Bosch electronics were fine. It never rusted and we did over 90000 miles in it.

 

[Sannio]

As for motorbikes:

 

[Sannio]

Sharing today's Italian heritage motorcycle brand research through AI. You probably know this stuff but I wanted a clear picture as I zone on my shortlist of finalists.

Ducati​

• Manufacturing Location: Bologna, Italy
• Owner: Ducati Motor Holding S.p.A.
• Ownership Percentages: 100% Audi AG
• Parent Company: Audi AG
• Country of Primary Ownership: Germany (part of Volkswagen Group)

Aprilia​

• Manufacturing Location: Noale and Scorzè, Italy
• Owner: Piaggio & C. SpA
• Ownership Percentages: 100% Piaggio Group
• Parent Company: Piaggio Group
• Country of Primary Ownership: Italy

Moto Guzzi​

• Manufacturing Location: Mandello del Lario, Italy
• Owner: Piaggio & C. SpA
• Ownership Percentages: 100% Piaggio Group
• Parent Company: Piaggio Group
• Country of Primary Ownership: Italy

MV Agusta​

• Manufacturing Location: Varese, Italy
• Owner: MV Agusta Motor S.p.A.
• Ownership Percentages: 75% ComSar Invest, 25.1% KTM AG
• Parent Companies: ComSar Invest (75%) and KTM AG (25.1%)
• Country of Primary Ownership: Russia (ComSar Invest) and Austria (KTM AG)

Benelli​

• Manufacturing Location: Pesaro, Italy
• Owner: Qianjiang Group
• Ownership Percentages: 100% Qianjiang Group
• Parent Company: Geely Holding Group
• Country of Primary Ownership: China

Bimota​

• Manufacturing Location: Rimini, Italy
• Owner: Kawasaki Heavy Industries (49.9% stake)
• Ownership Percentages: 49.9% Kawasaki Heavy Industries
• Parent Company: Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Ltd.
• Country of Primary Ownership: Japan

Cagiva​

• Manufacturing Location: Varese, Italy (historical; current status is largely dormant as a brand)
• Owner: MV Agusta Motor S.p.A.
• Ownership Percentages: 75% ComSar Invest, 25.1% KTM AG
• Parent Companies: ComSar Invest (75%) and KTM AG (25.1%)
• Country of Primary Ownership: Russia (ComSar Invest) and Austria (KTM AG)

 

[tobinh]

I don't care in the slightest... I really only care that the workers are paid and treated well, and the company in question has real roots to their home and is a good corporate citizen.

That seems to describe Moto Guzzi, so I'm a fan. Maybe it describes some Chinese or Indian companies, I don't know. I don't feel much need to buy any other kind of motorbike, so I'm not spending a lot of time investigating!

 

[Sannio]

I don't care in the slightest... I really only care that the workers are paid and treated well, and the company in question has real roots to their home and is a good corporate citizen.

That seems to describe Moto Guzzi, so I'm a fan. Maybe it describes some Chinese or Indian companies, I don't know. I don't feel much need to buy any other kind of motorbike, so I'm not spending a lot of time investigating!

I appreciate the added depth by introducing the importance of ethical considerations and responsible corporate behavior. I respect the broadening criteria for brand loyalty beyond the assembly location. It leads me to challenge deeply held beliefs regarding brand loyalists placing on the significance of manufacturing origins.

Curiosity has me by the tail. If Moto Guzzi were to shift its manufacturing to a different country but maintained the same ethical standards, worker treatment, and corporate citizenship, would you still remain loyal to the brand, or does the location of assembly still hold significant value for you?

 

[South Westerly]

I'm not interested in anything made in China on principle.

 

[tobinh]

I appreciate the added depth by introducing the importance of ethical considerations and responsible corporate behavior. I respect the broadening criteria for brand loyalty beyond the assembly location. It leads me to challenge deeply held beliefs regarding brand loyalists placing on the significance of manufacturing origins.

Curiosity has me by the tail. If Moto Guzzi were to shift its manufacturing to a different country but maintained the same ethical standards, worker treatment, and corporate citizenship, would you still remain loyal to the brand, or does the location of assembly still hold significant value for you?

maybe I would remain loyal, but the reason companies change location is almost always to save money on labour. that would likely be disqualifying for me immediately. I don't want to see a bunch of nice mandello folks out of work!

if our economic system is to justify itself, companies should provide stable employment and good wages, profit is not enough - for me, anyway. chasing labour costs is just wholly incompatible with that. I want to buy stuff from companies employing workers who can reasonably expect to put their kids through college. to me, that is what a healthy society looks like and I will support companies who support that vision when I am able. my leathers are from Vanson, boots from Gaerne, helmet from Arai, etc. - all companies who make good stuff and pay reasonable wages in good conditions. I mean, as far as my knowledge of these things goes, there is a limit to the amount of research I'm willing to do!

the lines on a map are waayyy down the list of things I care about. even if some government is doing something awful, the people working at the motorbike factory are rarely to blame!

 

[Sannio]

@tobinh ...thanks for sharing your views.

 

[scott_m]

Italy is VERY DIFFERENT from the United States.

Moto Guzzi by law, may not just up and move production because they would make more money.

Any significant business modification like that would require government approval and that is never going to happen. It would economically devastate Mandello del Lario.

Human beings have ultimate value and consideration in Italy.

Not everyplace in the world runs on the unrestrained greed of American capitalism.

Thank God.

 

[Scott Williams]

I had a Thai built Triumph that I traded for my V100. It was very well put together with quality components.
kk

Thai gerbage.I would trust that POS to make it across the road.The only reason they moved to Thai it get the bikes made cheaper and still charge at way more then there are worth.By the way this a This is a Moto Guzzi site. Not really for garbage made in Asia!My nephew was going to buy a triumph until I told him where they are made and he said screw thump and there gerbage! I can't wait for Triumph to go the way of the dodo no great loss there .And they have the union jack on them what a disgrace! Capitalism has made this country great. Here is proof is I see people coming here but I don't see no one leaving because of capitalism love it or leave it.

 

[scott_m]

Capitalism has made this country great. Here is proof is I see people coming here but I don't see no one leaving because of capitalism love it or leave it.

Numerous countries in the world have freedom and capitalism. It's not a USA thing. It was other places long before it reached these shores.

You're drinking the political hoopla Kool-Aid.

America has unrestrained capitalism which has mutated into excessive corporate greed.

Also, every single country in Europe experiences immigration. People move to Italy, England, France, Ireland, Scotland, Germany, Czech Republic, Belgium, Holland, Poland, etc. Literally everywhere. One of the members here is getting ready to expat to Albania!

Again, people moving here is not unique to the USA regardless of the political propaganda.

Not everyone wants to move to the USA.

We are not so high and mighty. Those who try and claim that crap have never traveled to other countries in the world.

There are like nearly 9 million expat Americans living abroad right now and hundreds of thousands join them every year. We are going to join them soon. Italy is still in our future.

The USA is nice but it ain't perfect. There are lots of nice places in this world.

 

[Sannio]

Got into a discussion with a KTM buddy re. KTM moving more production out of Austria. I said I wouldn't have bought my V100 if it wasn't made in Italy (I know parts come from all over, but it's important to me that it comes off the line where the brand originates from).
Do any of you feel as strongly as I do?

Hey, OP, I've been following this thread with great interest, and it's prompted some deep reflection on my part. As a dual national with strong connections to two countries, I initially felt my blood rise when considering the idea of Guzzi production moving elsewhere. The brand holds sentimental value for me, and I'm currently torn between a new Guzzi, a new Ducati, or a KTM/Husqvarna. The KTM is built in China and the Husky has a Chinese fabricated motor.

Your question led me to define my position on how my money practices brand enthusiasm. I find satisfaction in clinging to an idealized past or a romanticized notion of certain brands, at the cost of objectively assessing the current merits of alternatives that might be more fun. I can only afford one bike and one car. This discussion has made me realize I've been grappling with some personal prejudices that I've only recently started to recognize and work on overcoming. It's a slow process, but I'm committed to growth and broadening my perspectives.

As a first step in this journey, I recently bought a 2024 MX-5 6-speed GT convertible. To my surprise, I've come to love this Japanese roadster just as much as I did my old Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce. And that has me pondering another aspect of this issue. I realize that I have been missing out. Maybe limiting my fun under falsehood in claiming to be an enthusiast for something that professes to deliver based on a promise implied by legacy when something else is better at delivering a desired effect and performance.

I appreciate anyone whose life allows them a gearhead stable. Every machine they own has its place in their head and heart. I now more fully respect the 'driver' and 'rider' who deeply appreciate their steed regardless of the eyes of others. I get it now, after experiencing my latest car coming from a lesson learned from a time with a motorcycle in a foreign country that opened my mind to considering a Miata, today, in my home country. Stuck there during COVID lockdowns, I ordered a bike that my ego wanted, but it was unavailable. Forced by circumstances, the dealer encouraged me to try another bike—one I wouldn't normally consider. That experience taught me that I don't need excessive horsepower and torque. It proved that I hate unnecessary weight that adds clumsiness. I validated my appreciation of good, manageable handling built into the design. It turned out to be well-built too. The trade of off-highway prowess and missing those approving glances from people I don't know for the wonderful treat I gave myself on tarmac sweepers was a small price to pay.

I will always gravitate towards Italian brands due to their heritage and the emotions they evoke. When I can afford it, I will get another one. If I can't afford the one I want, I will not hesitate to get the best bike that fits me and delivers the experience that brings the biggest smile to the budget at hand. Today, my motorcycle choices are less limited and don't "need" to be heavily based on geographic bias, cultural stereotyping, ethnocentrism, economic prejudice, nationalism, xenophobia, historical bias, brand elitism, anti-globalization sentiment, or socioeconomic prejudice. I know I will fight myself because I've been wired with several of those views but at least my mind is more open today than it was when you started this thread.

Thanks!

 

[South Westerly]

Not really relevant but KTM's 800 cc engines and Husqvarna's which are I believe made in China are having serious issues with material fatigue in, I think, cam shafts.

 

[Scott Williams]

Numerous countries in the world have freedom and capitalism. It's not a USA thing. It was other places long before it reached these shores.

You're drinking the political hoopla Kool-Aid.

America has unrestrained capitalism which has mutated into excessive corporate greed.

Also, every single country in Europe experiences immigration. People move to Italy, England, France, Ireland, Scotland, Germany, Czech Republic, Belgium, Holland, Poland, etc. Literally everywhere. One of the members here is getting ready to expat to Albania!

Again, people moving here is not unique to the USA regardless of the political propaganda.

Not everyone wants to move to the USA.

We are not so high and mighty. Those who try and claim that crap have never traveled to other countries in the world.

There are like nearly 9 million expat Americans living abroad right now and hundreds of thousands join them every year. We are going to join them soon. Italy is still in our future.

The USA is nice but it ain't perfect. There are lots of nice places in this world.So

So other countries have freedom and capitalism show me the country that has the same freedoms and rights we are born with? Not every one wants to live here funny the people coming from the southern border are not going thru America to get into Canada are they. Your ancestors that came from Italy if Italy is such a wonderful place than why didn't they stay where they were at? Yes America is not perfect but unlike you I love my country. I was working long before I was eighteen I worked in the coal mines for twenty years.So I didn't like you spend years sitting in a college being taught by a commie who put garbage in your head about how you should hate your country as you live here making money and enjoying the benefits of our country. And as far as other countries of the world I could almost care I am sure there some very nice places the kind of place that is nice to visit then leave. As for people and you leaving this great country leave don't let the door hit you on your ass. And why do you have to comment on every thing ?And you bad mouthing our country you disgrace every person who fought and died so we can live free.

 

[scott_m]

So other countries have freedom and capitalism show me the country that has the same freedoms and rights we are born with?

There are actually 16 countries with a higher Freedom Index than the United States, including Switzerland, New Zealand, Denmark, Ireland, Estonia, Sweden, Iceland, Luxembourg, Finland, Norway, Netherlands, Taiwan, Canada, Australia, Latvia, Japan.

Both Lithuanian and the United Kingdom ranked the same as the USA, with all three nations achieving the same score and having a 3 way tie for 17th place.

cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/2023-12/human-freedom-index-2023-full-revised.pdf

Not every one wants to live here funny the people coming from the southern border are not going thru America to get into Canada are they.

Are you serious? Your argument is because people walking from the poorest 3rd world Latin or Central America countries, don't pass through the USA on their way to Canada, that this somehow means everyone wants to live here?

Your ancestors that came from Italy if Italy is such a wonderful place than why didn't they stay where they were at?

The United States has enjoyed the privilege of not having a World War fought on its territory. Most Americans take this for granted.

Most of Europe sustained massive damage and hardship from the war. Many people left the bombed out ruins of Europe to come to the unscathed USA, my grandparents included.

On my father's side, they have lived in Texas since the mid 1700's, BEFORE it was Texas. It was owned by the Spanish Crown back then.

They lived in the Republic of Texas as well, from 1836 and continuing on in the State of Texas from 1845 continuously until today. Nearly 300 years in North America.

Yes America is not perfect but unlike you I love my country.

You presume way too much and are insulting and rude.

I love my country very much. I love my home state of California even more.

Simply because I wish to live in Italy, doesn't change this fact.

I know this is difficult for you to wrap your head around it but there are millions of us with Dual Citizenship, USA and Italy, in my case.

I was working long before I was eighteen I worked in the coal mines for twenty years.So I didn't like you spend years sitting in a college being taught by a commie who put garbage in your head about how you should hate your country as you live here making money and enjoying the benefits of our country.

Ah, so your vast personal experience and knowledge has clearly and convincingly shown you that colleges are taught by "communists" who teach "garbage". Hmm.

Do you always express such absurd things like this about something you actually have no experience with whatsoever?

Just because I would like to live my life out living in Italy, does not equal that I hate my country.

How do you make such wild leaps in logic, reasoning and common sense? Are you this offensive in person?

And as far as other countries of the world I could almost care I am sure there some very nice places the kind of place that is nice to visit then leave.

I gather from this comment, that you have not travelled outside the USA. How unfortunate.

As for people and you leaving this great country leave don't let the door hit you on your ass.

I am a citizen of the USA and a citizen of the Republic of Italy. I may move freely between them.

Like I said, there are millions of Americans who live abroad. Millions.

I have friends in several countries and ones living in Portugal who I will visit next year.

And why do you have to comment on every thing ?

It's a motorcycle forum. I've spent my life in motorcycles so I comment on many things to help others. I also enjoy communicating with other people. I'm gregarious by nature.

I'm commenting here specifically because your hugely offensive comments, warrant it.

I wholeheartedly reject your premise that ignorance is an equivalency for education.

I reject your isolationist viewpoint and call you out for your erroneous belief that somehow you get to decide who loves and who hates their country.

You view yourself as judge of what and who is "American" and who loves what! My God you are presumptuous and arrogant.

And you bad mouthing our country you disgrace every person who fought and died so we can live free.

Bad mouthed? Where? What?

I've "disgraced" ?

Who are you to judge anyone else loving their country, especially people you don't even know?

Who named you God?

You bristled because I told the truth that freedom and capitalism are not uniquely American ideas? That they predate the USA by a mile?

Facts are facts. Get over yourself.

It would probably kill you to know that you need to thank France, every single day, because had it not been for France, we would be part of Great Britain. We did NOTHING on our own in this country. We had a lot of help along the way.

We also stripped freedom from many people here and imposed tyranny and slavery. People make poor decisions and mistakes along the way. Even Americans.

Oh also, many people in the world have fought and died for freedom. Again, not a uniquely American event.

The bottom line is that this is a motorcycle forum for aficionados of the Italian designed and manufactured motorcycle, Moto Guzzi.

I am here because I love Moto Guzzi motorcycles and regard those who share my love for them, as my brothers and sisters. We are Guzzisti.

Even you, you are a Guzzisti too, albeit why such a red, white, and blue blooded, born-again, patriotic flag waving, rabidly nationalistic country-loving American like you, would even remotely be interested in an Italian anything, actually stupefies me.

I hope you can one day actually experience some of the rest of the world for what it truly is. It's an interesting place indeed.

 

[tobinh]

So other countries have freedom and capitalism show me the country that has the same freedoms and rights we are born with? Not every one wants to live here funny the people coming from the southern border are not going thru America to get into Canada are they. Your ancestors that came from Italy if Italy is such a wonderful place than why didn't they stay where they were at? Yes America is not perfect but unlike you I love my country. I was working long before I was eighteen I worked in the coal mines for twenty years.So I didn't like you spend years sitting in a college being taught by a commie who put garbage in your head about how you should hate your country as you live here making money and enjoying the benefits of our country. And as far as other countries of the world I could almost care I am sure there some very nice places the kind of place that is nice to visit then leave. As for people and you leaving this great country leave don't let the door hit you on your ass. And why do you have to comment on every thing ?And you bad mouthing our country you disgrace every person who fought and died so we can live free.

this post is so beautiful, it's like sometimes you forget that stereotypes have to come from *somewhere*