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Norge 2V. Fuel, compression but no spark

B

brodonn

Tuned and Synch'ed
GT Famiglia
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Messages
35
I am trying to sort a problem on my son's 2009 Norge, 2 valve and would appreciate some help, or opinions.
When the key switch is activated I hear a click and the fuel pump primes with no tell-tale 'swoosh' in the tank. Three seconds later I hear the second click. So far so good - tank internals apparently intact and two relays energised. When the start button is pressed the engine turns over but there is no spark, so no ignition.
I reckon if I have power to the fuel pump then, by the wiring diagram I have, I should also have it to both coils and both injectors. When i check between battery negative and the input to the fuel pump I have 2.00 Volts on my meter. Similarly for the LH injector, so I imagine it's the same on the other Injector and on the coils. perhaps in my ignorance, I expect that I should see 12 V on those inputs, not 2.00 volts.
I'm a bit at sea because I don't know which relay is which - I count six on the bike (including one tucked down beside the battery), and five on the wiring diagram - hmmm!
I can't release that darned fuel hose conection - probably because it's still pressurised, and of course I can't run the engine with the pump disconnected to release the pressure. So I can't remove the tank to properly access the ECU to check at pins on it. If I kept my thumb on the starter for a while (maybe with a plug removed to relieve compression), would that release the fuel pressure?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Brian
 
the fuel connection can be a bit fiddly, but if you keep at it you will get it. somewhere here there is a good instructional post by scott, but basically, depress the little plunger and work it back and forth until it comes off. mind the little plastic fitting/barb, it can break.

you're certain you have no spark? if so, why are you investigating the injectors?
 
Just cranking it over will squirt enough fuel to relieve pressure if pump is disconnected. See if plugs are wet. ECU is under steering head.
Spark is triggered from cam sensor in front of LH cylinder, held on w/2 allen screws. They do go bad. The relays can be in any order, best to match by wire color going to them.
There are some nice threads on this if you search around.
 
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2009 Fuel Line Connector

That’s life in the service industry - Stupid customers money pays my bills. Ps: They aren’t really stupid sometimes they just don’t get it... and that’s what keeps us gainfully employed Don Yep, that's the way I see it too. The goal of the service provider is to ethically extract money from...
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Charcoal Canister Removal - Detailed with Pictures

Yes you can. Having the hose on the ports just makes it easier to sync the throttle bodies if needed in the future. That is what I thought. Since my TBS Sync tool already has the hoses needed, I will just install the vacuum adapters with their caps and be done with it. Thank you!
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Specifically, posts 74 & 77
 
The thing to remember about the fuel connector is that it's designed for quick connection for the automotive industry and not quickly release.

A pair of pliers similar to these makes things a lot easier as you can squeeze, pull and wiggle all at the same time
You'll need to double check that I've got the right ones as it's been a while since I've been under the tank of a CARC bike
www.ebay.co.uk

Car Fuel Line Petrol Pipe Hose Connector Quick Release Removal Plier Auto Tool | eBay

Car Fuel Line Petrol Pipe Hose Connector Quick Release Removal Plier Auto Tool.
www.ebay.co.uk
 
Actually, no tool is necessary at all. In fact, it's better to just use your fingers as you are less likely to snap the elbow.

Also, if you look at the connectors, I don't see that tool being functional. I could be wrong but I don't think so. There are photos of the connectors in my link to post #77 above.





 
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As I have said many times before, disconnect the electrical connection to the fuel pump. Attempt an engine start to remove pressure in the fuel line. Then fuel line connector comes apart easily. It is a push pull type connector like an air hose.
 
Many thanks for the replies.
I don't want to get too hung up on the fuel connector. I'm on my third Norge and have had the connectors off a number of times, always running with the pump disconnected until it stopped. With that, they came off easily enough. This one, however, will not budge, which brings me to Steve V700's question; Are the plugs wet when I crank the engine to release the pressure. The answer is no, which indicates that the injectors are not being activated (via the ECU presumably). I cannot find a cam sensor on my wiring diagram, or in the list of electrical components. Would it be called something else? I have removed the LH fairing, but can't identify the sensor, nor do I know what a test with a meter should produce. Any help on that would be great to get.
The reason I was investigating the injectors was because it was an easy place to check for 12 V on that line that feeds the fuel pump, coils, injectors etc.
My wiring diagram is different to what is on the bike, both in wire colours and number of relays I can see. Also different fuses seem to feed different components than those on the diagram. Life is interesting, even for a dummy.
What I have discovered is that, on turning the key I get 12 V to that line (coils etc.) but after about 3 sesconds that 12 V drops to 2 V, as one relay drops out, and that is what is left sitting at the fuel pump, injectors and coils. This doesn't make sense to dumbo here, but maybe some can comment? The relay that drops out is referred to as the Auxiliary Injection relay on my drawing. Is this relay switched by the cam sensor to give fuel and spark when needed? I would have expected this to happen electronically in the ECU rather than physically/electrically through a set of contacts that can be heard clicking, but either way it would point to the elusive cam sensor as being the main suspect. It's evening time here now, but tomorrow I'll go looking - again.
Big thanks again for your interest and help.
Brian
p.s. I should have said that the only errors showing Are DSB 05 (fuel sensor) and ECU 54 (instrument panel).
 
brodonn said:
This one, however, will not budge,
Click to expand...
If you read my post in its entirety, I explain this.

It is always helpful to understand the mechanical aspect of what is happening.

You need to get the pawls to release from the locking ring. You can give a shot of silicon lubricant onto the connector and then push on and pull back slightly several times (it may only move 1mm but this enough to get it to loosen up) while holding the locking collar in.

The pawls will eventually let go.

Sometimes they just need some wiggling to get moving again.
 
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It's called Engine RPM sensor in Service Manual/ Electric Sys page 16
They also make a Hi Def PDF wiring diagram, sorry not colored but excellent and correct. Should be in Downloads
Looks just like John's pic
If you ground plugs on head fin you should see a spark at plug. Might not squirt enough to get wet w/pump disconnected.
 
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scottmastrocinque said:
If you read my post in its entirety, I explain this.

It is always helpful to understand the mechanical aspect of what is happening.

You need to get the pawls to release from the locking ring. You can give a shot of silicon lubricant onto the connector and then push on and pull back slightly several times (it may only move 1mm but this enough to get it to loosen up) while holding the locking collar in.

The pawls will eventually let go.

Sometimes they just need some wiggling to get moving again.
Click to expand...
I really do read all the replies I get in their entirety as I appreciate every one. I'm sure you read mine through as well, so you will appreciate that I have disconnected theese numerous times so I know about the squirt of lubricant, the pushing, pulling and wiggling, but I still cannot shift this one on this occasion. Having started my working life as an aircraft apprentice, and having worked for 56 years on all kinds of pneumatic, hydraulic liquid oxygen etc. systems, I understand the mechanical workings of lots of different connectors pretty well. With that background I still can't shift this one, but I also know that I'm better to leave a pressurised connector alone, especially if my problem seems to be electrics and I only wanted to move the tank initially for clearer access. I can work around it.
Thanks again for the advice
Brian
 
Some excellent help there.
Thanks so much.
I checked for a spark with the plugs out and well earthed and have no spark. If the cam sensor triggers a pulse to each of the coils, injectors and fuel pump, and if that is dodgy, that would explain why I cannot release the fuel pressure by cranking the engine, as well as why I have no spark. It will also explain why the voltage in that line drops when the engine is not turning.
I think John's clear picture, coupled with V700 Steve's clear advice might just solve this - maybe with a little work from myself.
I see a 'Phase/revolution' sensor in my parts manual but I'll check out the resources mentioned here to see if that is it. Roll on tomorrow morning :)
 
brodonn said:
I really do read all the replies I get in their entirety as I appreciate every one. I'm sure you read mine through as well, so you will appreciate that I have disconnected theese numerous times so I know about the squirt of lubricant, the pushing, pulling and wiggling, but I still cannot shift this one on this occasion. Having started my working life as an aircraft apprentice, and having worked for 56 years on all kinds of pneumatic, hydraulic liquid oxygen etc. systems, I understand the mechanical workings of lots of different connectors pretty well.
Click to expand...
Always good to lead in with this type of info on your posts. That allows us to correctly respond. Love having those with immense experience here. Appreciated and look forward to further input from you in the future.
The connection fitting can be a bit cantankerous, but with a little wiggle and steady easy pull, they usually will pop off. Don't give up. Trick is not to pull too hard.
 
I no longer own my mighty 2007 Norge (2V Heads), but this extensive Information file I gathered remains on-line. Hopefully it will be of use to you and others in the future. It includes links to a dozen or so other on-line references including Service Manual and Electrical diagram and Parts List. Here is the link:

dansher.com/bikepix/Guzzi/Norge1200/Norge_2007_fyi.txt
 
M0T0Geezer said:
I no longer own my mighty 2007 Norge (2V Heads), but this extensive Information file I gathered remains on-line. Hopefully it will be of use to you and others in the future. It includes links to a dozen or so other on-line references including Service Manual and Electrical diagram and Parts List. Here is the link:

dansher.com/bikepix/Guzzi/Norge1200/Norge_2007_fyi.txt
Click to expand...

Sweet! Thank You Very Much.
 
M0T0Geezer said:
I no longer own my mighty 2007 Norge (2V Heads), but this extensive Information file I gathered remains on-line. Hopefully it will be of use to you and others in the future. It includes links to a dozen or so other on-line references including Service Manual and Electrical diagram and Parts List. Here is the link:

dansher.com/bikepix/Guzzi/Norge1200/Norge_2007_fyi.txt
Click to expand...
Terrific.
Many thanks.
 
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