Norge oil pump failure?!

[Matteo]

This sounds a lot like what happened to a mate here in France, except that he had no discernable oil loss that he knows of, but did have the warning light remaining on for up to 10 minutes at times. He took the bike in last week, and the last thing I heard on Saturday was that his engine was locked up, despite having enough oil in the sump.

Rene, Any news? My Crank seized despite having a sump full of 10-60Agip synthetic oil, that was serviced one week prior. I did find my airbox full of oil when I opened it.

 

[guzzibob]

Oil pump???? Prior to this I had the occasional lingering oil light but always went out before long.

Regards

Matt Manfredi

Define "occaisional", "lingering", and "before long." Also, did you do anything about it? Anyone who has an oil light come on anytime except for when you turn the key on before hitting the start button without immediately/ASAP investigating the cause of same is asking for it-and you got it when your crank seized after several warnings.

Ditto to RJVB's French friend who had "the warning light remaining on for up to 10 minutes at times" before he finally brought it in for service.

Assuming it is oil pump failure, that would be Guzzi's (or their supplier's) fault, but as an owner you have to have some common sense or a minimal amount of mechanical knowledge about these things as well. Both of these bikes gave plenty of warning before failing, without any posted indication that the owners did anything for quite a while but check the oil level-which is not necessarily an indicator of oil pressure-which is what the oil light is warning about. I would be very interested to know the date of manufacture of these bikes to compare with other oil pump failures, known to be Oct/Nov '06.

 

[Matteo]

Thanks for the lecture Bob, I'll remember that next time I'm a thousand miles from home on some desolate stretch of highway.

 

[draidt]

I know the final resolution on Zipster's trouble, turned out the starter motor was not disengaging at times and engaging at other times while the motor was running due to a short in the wiring harness, Zipster has moved on to a Triumph Sprint after being disillusioned with the Norge. I do know that his well sorted former Norge is for sale at Moto Nexus in Hendersonville North Carolina
http://www.moto-nexus.com/nc/index.php? ... &Itemid=52

 

[guzzibob]

Thanks for the lecture Bob, I'll remember that next time I'm a thousand miles from home on some desolate stretch of highway.

Sorry it came across that way, however please bear in mind that my hope is to prevent you-and others-from getting stuck on said desolate stretch of highway in the first place. An ounce of prevention, as the saying goes.....

 

[RJVB]

Rene, Any news? My Crank seized despite having a sump full of 10-60Agip synthetic oil, that was serviced one week prior. I did find my airbox full of oil when I opened it.

Yes, but a bit confuse. Last I heard was that the engine turns OK by hand, but that the pump has the broken rotor, a camshaft has been shat, and "the seals" are to be replaced. There was also some mention about the cam having damaged the aluminium part of the head that holds it.

I'm not sure to what extent this pal had the warning light (which is NOT just an oil pressure light!) issue. As a reminder, the flickering light is apparently caused by an insufficient of failure-prone isolation from the engine casing. The other local pal who had a pump failure and replacement did have the light issue, he had a number of new oil pressure senders, the oil pump replaced ... and then the flickering came back again ... and turned out to be due to some issue with the dash. (I never thought to ask him if the light might actually have been a warning about that dashboard issue!)

 

[guzzibob]

It is definitely true that there are problems with Guzzi oil pressure sending units going way back. Hence also true that the light going on may sometimes mean nothing more than a false signal. Also true that the light going on, no matter how much oil shows on the dipstick, can also mean that a catastrophic engine failure is going to occur, sometimes immediately, sometimes down the road. Bottom line, must be taken seriously, assume the worst until proven otherwise by identifying the real problem. Too much at stake both in $ and, potentially, the health of the rider.

And again, I think it would really be helpful to all of us to know the manufacturing date of all these failed oil pump bikes, either to confirm that they all go back to late '06 or earlier-or that they don't & more of us may have something to worry about.

 

[Zipster]

I know the final resolution on Zipster's trouble, turned out the starter motor was not disengaging at times and engaging at other times while the motor was running due to a short in the wiring harness, Zipster has moved on to a Triumph Sprint after being disillusioned with the Norge. I do know that his well sorted former Norge is for sale at Moto Nexus in Hendersonville North Carolina
http://www.moto-nexus.com/nc/index.php? ... &Itemid=52

Dan is correct that the apparent root issue with my Norge was a short that was causing unrequested starter engagement. This lovely feature hauled the bike to a very sudden, grinding stop and stall when it occurred at low speed. I suppose I had read too much about the oil pump issues and jumped to that conclusion. Regardless, the bike was "locked up", would not run or restart. Moto Nexus was able to get it started after it sat in the shop for several days waiting for an RSV4 engine replacement to be finished. After the short was found and fixed and I brought the bike home, I enjoyed one month of trouble free riding before my original issues with the TPS came back again. The bike would stall and fail to restart, giving a throttle ground fault code. The most excellent techs at Moto Nexus found another shorting issue with the main harness and test rides have shown the bike to now be well sorted.
As for me, my eye did wander back to my second choice when I bought the Norge as Dan mentions...a Triumph Sprint. I bought a nice graphite colored 09 model that had some low demo miles and have been very happy with its habit of starting and running every time I hit the switch! The 1050 motor is a wonderful thing and the sporty position and handling suits my riding opportunities better anyway. The Norge beats it in braking, weather protection, pannier capacity and panache, but I was simply not willing to get stranded for a fourth time by a two-year old bike for such issues.
I do believe it has been sorted now, there are no signs of oil pump failure, and it has been sold to an eager new owner who also has a Jackal. I believe he will do more touring on it and I hope they are quite happy together.
I'm very grateful to all of you who offered insight and suggestions. I'm a reasonably good mechanic but electrics and electronics are not my forte.
SPAM content...I have a Guzzitech CNC-d airbox lid and stepper motor kit, never installed, which I would like to sell. Please PM if interested.
Rob

 

[Penis Rotor]

Yes, but a bit confuse. Last I heard was that the engine turns OK by hand, but that the pump has the broken rotor, a camshaft has been shat, and "the seals" are to be replaced. There was also some mention about the cam having damaged the aluminium part of the head that holds it.

Well yes. You are definitely causing confusion. A Norge cam doesn't run in the head, it runs in the engine block. If the oil pump rotor has gone it is not terrifically likely to have anything to do with the cam problems as the cams themselves are fed by splash.

If you take the timing cover off you'd have to be daft not to replace the crank seal.

Look. The thing is that all the later, post late 2006 I think, 1100 and 1200 pushrod motors use the same pump. If it was an endemic problem with the pump then ALL models, Griso 11's, Norges, Breva 12's and 1200 Sports AND Bellagios would be dropping like flies.

I DO tend to think that there may of been a short run of faulty rotors as there has been this small rash of Norges affected by oil pump failure, that is what the evidence points too, but it isn't enough to cry foul on the pump as a unit.

I dunno why it is that early Norges seem so prone to problems, no idea.

Pete

 

[RJVB]

Pete, I'm just relaying/translating what the owner reported. He has probably (even) less mechanical knowledge than I do (he seemed to think a failing gearbox seal can explain an engine oil leak).

 

[baloches]

My service light was coming on, indicating an oil pressure fault when idling hot. I checked it with a mechanical gauge, and got the same results as RandyP, 60 psi at idle cold or hot, 80 psi max at approximately 4000 rpm. I felt alot better...

The switch thread is 12mm x 1.5 pitch. I turned an adaptor on my lathe at 16 threads per inch (don't have metric thread pitch) and it worked fine.

Cheers,
Kai

 

[RJVB]

Well yes. You are definitely causing confusion. A Norge cam doesn't run in the head, it runs in the engine block. If the oil pump rotor has gone it is not terrifically likely to have anything to do with the cam problems as the cams themselves are fed by splash.

Well, we're indeed all on the same page now as far as this is concerned, but some confusion remains at least between dealer and my mate. The former thinks the cam (or its 'bearings') has been damaged, and that therefore the sump has to be replaced. Is that possible? I understand that 'splash' here means oil swung around by the action of (among others) the crank, directly from the sump?

 

[Bill Hagan]

I will search for this if readers ignore me -- and, as Kathi does that routinely, doesn't hurt my feelings any -- but ... did "we" ever identify the VIN range and/or build-dates of Norges with busted oil pumps?

 

[draidt]

I will search for this if readers ignore me -- and, as Kathi does that routinely, doesn't hurt my feelings any -- but ... did "we" ever identify the VIN range and/or build-dates of Norges with busted oil pumps?

Bill, it never was pinned down exactly maybe some where in the dungeons of Piaggio there lies the answer, As far as I know (which isn't much) Bikes with 2006 and very early 07 build dates, doesn't necessarily mean everyone will fail.

BTW how did your friend make out any results yet ?

 

[Brian UK]

Just had another failure reported here in the UK. Never seen an inner pump rotor worn as bad as this one.

 

[guzzibob]

Just had another failure reported here in the UK. Never seen an inner pump rotor worn as bad as this one.

ike

In order for this info to be useful, need to know:

1)Mileage on bike

2)Build date of bike

 

[Brian UK]

I'm trying to find out, but the bike was a 1200 Sport, not a Norge.

 

[Brian UK]

For the record, date on Frame is 16 Jan 2007, bike has done 30k miles.
So I think that puts it in the dodgy pump age group.

By the way, the owner has been told that these cranks are nitrided and so cannot be reground. No undersize shells are available.

 

[Guz5]

I have a late 06 Norge 12 and a friend here has one also, two chassis numbers away fro mine. Both have had pump failures. Aus importer wouldnt even think about doing a warranty.
Symptoms were red light on cold start up. No noise. No ceizures. No rear rod bearing wear which seems to be the first thing to look at. The outer pump rotor was in four pieces. the inner intact and it stil pumped ok. Lucky.

 

[Android]

Hi Brian.......just for the record/update.....new crank shaft ordered on 10th june 2014, Fowlers said it was "on the shelf" in Italy....still waiting despite several "scheduled" picking dates.

Earlier crank can be reground apparently

Lets hope it does not creep into August