Re: Bellagio mods

[ghezzi]

Re: Exhaust Question

Ok guys, just back from the dyno shop. :lol:

Start point: New custom exhaust with catalytic converter, and open air box lid. K&N wasn't available so I still have old original air cleaner in place. Bike has done 17,325k.

Peak power went from 72 to 76rwhp, torque went from 54 to 59ft/lbs

Amazingly, peak torque has been dropped from 5,800rpm to 4325rpm, at which point I have gained an extra 8hp and 10ft/lbs.. Yeeeeehhaaaaaahhhhh! This thing is real snappy. :lol:

Throttle response is amazing, the rush is almost 2 strokeish, I'm talking 1st & 2nd gear in the car park. It reminds me of my old Ducati 1100S Hypermotard. Now to complete legalities and go riding ............... give me a few weeks.

Fred showed me on the Dyno where at 1 point, the right cylinder needed 24% more fuel. At the same setting the left cylinder was running 17:1 A/F ratio. Left cylinder needed 42% more fuel than stock ECU was supplying to get on an even par. This fact seems to justify my quest for individual maps per cylinder.

Bella was still making power when she hit the rev limiter at approx 8250rpm, with a 66mm stroke = a piston speed of 18.15m/sec. In the old day 21m/sec was considered the limit so theoretically a rev limit of 9,500rpm could be possible. I leave you guys with hotrod experience to comment further.

 

[ferret]

Re: Exhaust Question

The bike looks good .For individual cylinder mapping i know that the motty AFR has that capability ,but you would have to buy the whole set up to make it work .

 

[GTM®]

Todd would be the best man to answer that question ................ accurately.

"Probes" to me refer to a copper tube from an air/fuel pump. The stock bungs in the headers are not sized to accept a narrow or wide band 02-sensor/lambda. One would need to modify the headers to the new larger style (weld in) 02 bungs. The technology is now available via AutoTune AT-300, which comes with two 02-sensors to connect to the PC-V. I am demo-ing one on my Stelvio, and I have one installed on an older Quota that works amazingly well. I'm a HUGE fan of individual cylinder mapping, but I'm a perfectionist. The single/combined AT-200 works extremely well, and is easy to install (no need to install additional bungs).

My understanding is that Todds full system (PC-5, Auto Tune & O2 Optimizer) negates the need to visit a dyno, Its a brilliant way to go if you are continually upgrading your bikes volumetric efficiency.

Lessening the confusion... I only really recommend the AutoTune with a stock 02-sensor/lambda delete. For those not deleting the 02/lambda, the 02-optimizer is used with the stock 02-sensor to revise fueling, and is a bit of a band-aid, but it does work. Open loop (static) mapping is a snap-shot in time. Real time revision via AutoTune is just that... revisions for every second the engine is running, which allow it to adapt brilliantly to perfect changes to everything thrown at it including, temperature, barometric pressure, altitude, fuel, etc., etc. Upside is that it will also adapt to any modifications done to the bike.

Personaly I am averse to multiple plug ins, add ons etc, I've done all my V/E mods in one go. The reason I like Tune Boy and MyECU systems, there is only ever one computer on board. My previous Cali Stone had its first PC III shit itself and the 2nd also malfunctioned and needed reflashing and retuning again. :x

Now wait a minute :S -- while I tend to agree on the surface with your comment, the only reason you are now riding on a tuned machine is because of a PC and AutoTune technology. I can count on one hand the amount of failures I've seen in over a decade now... and I've used one personally for over 100k+ miles with zero issues. If one does "fail" simply remove the map, and re-install on the new one. Of the few failures I've seen, most had to do with moisture in the connector to the ECU.

On topic, I'm thrilled to hear of your outcome with the mods you did, and happy to be of help/service. I'll see if Fred can send me the dyno run files to post.

 

[Charlie J]

Ghezzi this is exciting stuff!! You mentioned the A/F Ratios and different fuel corrections required at one point on your map,what sort of throttle opening was this at.Were these differences typical? Was it difficult to balance your T/Bs? What affect on T/B balance did the individual cylinder corrections have? I like the thought of the AT300.Cheers.

 

[ghezzi]

Hi Todd, this is the only one I have currently. (Hey, you changed the thread title)
My next question Todd, I now have heaps of room under the seat to more than double the size of the still air box, IYHO any real benefits.

Anybody want to donate an airbox for experimental purposes, identical to my 2001 Cali (Stone).

Charlie, T/B sync is a seperate issue to A/F ratio. These things were checked prior to dyno and will have zero impact if individual maps are used, ring me and we'll chat. Tappett adjustments have more impact on throttle "Balance" than jet sizes or ECU mapping.


The thing I love here is the fat gains at 4325rpm. On this very same dyno my Cali Stone with Staintunes & 'H' plus Open box with K&N only made 69rwhp

 

[ghezzi]

Re: Exhaust Question

The bike looks good .For individual cylinder mapping i know that the motty AFR has that capability ,but you would have to buy the whole set up to make it work .

Hi Ferret, when I started with the mods a Power Commander was always on the radar, but a local engineer kept pushing me to look at other options. I have just come through 2 years of being a development guinea pig for somebody elses creations with a 2 stroke project that has wasted $20k of mine thus far, so I resisted.

PC's are widely known and used, even if other devices have more options. I gave in to others persistence and then found out the hard way, I would have to be the developmental test bunny for a "new" product. Not this time fella.

Bella rocks!

 

[GTM®]

Hi Todd, this is the only one I have currently. (Hey, you changed the thread title)
My next question Todd, I now have heaps of room under the seat to more than double the size of the still air box, IYHO any real benefits. Anybody want to donate an airbox for experimental purposes, identical to my 2001 Cali (Stone).

I'm not sure what you've done the the air box yet, but best bet is to go lid-less per; https://www.guzzitech.com/EVPower-Todd_E.html
Yes, I changed the thread title to better reflect the nature of the thread now. Congrats on leading the way since no one here in the States can even swing a leg over one. I'd have one in the garage if I had the opportunity.

The air/fuel graph above is classic lean then ultra-rich in stock form.

 

[Charlie J]

Ghezzi I obviously mistakenly thought that your individual cylinder A/FRs were due to air flow but it was the OEM mapping wasnt it.

 

[GTM®]

Wayne, Fred sent them to me, so I can now do some fun overlays. Below is your two runs, and the green trace is my Jackal after some intake/exhaust work too (2-1). Enjoy.

 

[ghezzi]

Air box lid is same as your "Beast", or Fast by Ferracci alloy ring which I copied on my Stone.
This time I just hacked the complete top off with a hacksaw, as per your link/photo. With that basic set-up you got 72 to my 69rwhp on my 1064cc Cali.

On the above graph Bella hit 76hp with only 940cc but at 1,600rpm higher, while my torque peak is 1,000rpm lower.
Besides V11 engine and 45mm throttle bodies, what other mods did you make to "The Beast"?
Bella still has OEM filter.

Not that I need to spend anymore money, but wondering if a larger air box with a divider down the middle might improve midrange. Many twins including 2 strokes use this method to good effect for midrange.

Moto Guzzi isn't known for pushing the performance envelope but almost every other manufacturer of big twins will have a better designed box for good reasons.

 

[Penis Rotor]

Bellagio airbox and Cali airbox look the same but have different part numbers. They may of course be the same but the Bellagiounit has a later, Piaggio part #. Cali airbox is hideously expensive, (Which is silly, the Griso box costs pennies!) there is no price listed curently for the Bellagio box but I can enquire tomorrow if you's like. I'll happily supply one at cost for this sort of fun.

Pete

 

[ghezzi]

Hi Pete,
To know the price of a new one would be great on the Justin bases (just in case).

Would probably cut-n-shut via Mr Plastics at Slacks Creek, also look at curving trumpets so they don't point at each other, otherwise any central divider would actually be in the direct airflow pathway. But this mod would be for shits and giggles so is not high on my priorities just yet.

 

[Penis Rotor]

The Cali airbox, (2 arts, box and lid.) would be over $300 to me!!!! Stupid as I said. There must be dozens of them lying around from older models where people have gone to pods.

Pete

 

[Moz]

really interesting results - thanks for keeping us posted The bellagio short stroke donk is such a nice motor right out of the box but these mods seem to have really livened it up - especially on low end torque! :lol:

Some English guys have been using these to good effect on the bellagio and I'm tempted to give it a go..? Not after more power just less weight and aesthetics..

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Quill-EVO2-Ex ... 27c201d2b4
really a cut and shut just behind the lambda boss - they say the fueling is fine.. we may see :?

 

[ghezzi]

Hi Moz, Put your bike on a dyno for an A/F ratio readout, plus horsies etc. Trust me, you'll order a PC-5 straight up.
If you don't re-flash you'll need an O2 optimizer.

Then when the tank is off for wiring up the PC-5, hack the top off the air box lid, takes about 10 min holding the lid between your knees. Chop the snorkels off first flush with the front edge of the lid, then hack the rest off horizontally.

 

[ghezzi]

Final creation of bracketry to install mods will be complete tonight, plus removal of all unwanted lugs, tags and brackets on frame.

Auto lecky tomorrow for some nice little alterations and then Thursday being a pubic holiday here was planning on secretly joining a big ride with Oz Bikers for a surprise..........................

Weather forecast is for continuation of rain and local flooding .........................

 

[ghezzi]

Rear guard remains polished alloy until after Mk1 Le Mans ALLOY tank is fitted, then I'll decide if front alloy guard or black rear guard is the way to go .................... could be 6 months away yet.

Pipes get black ceramic coating this week

Thinking when seat gets slightly reshaped to fit alloy tank, the 'RED' piping angle needs to be altered so it flows in a straight line from the red stickers on the frame rail. Will shorten and lower rear seat hump as well. In the central panel of the seat (facing rearward) will have "MOTO GUZZI" screen printed in white, maybe no emblems on tank, or just a red eagle.

 

[Moz]

Wow, I really like what you've done so far - just needs clip-ons... :lol:

 

[ghezzi]

Standard Ducati Monster (22mm) handle bars & Cali bar clamps (30mm) on hand.
Just need some spacers or shells made.

 

[ghezzi]

Well been for a bit of a strap this weekend, mostly keeping to the speed limit. Mate in a car says its a bit anti-social in traffic if I turn the volume up.

My old Cali stone with similar mods (at 1064cc) was good for about 190k flat stick.
The 66mm short stroke Bellagio (936cc) had 140k in 3rd on the rev limiter (8,300rpm) and pulling 195kph in 5th before lack of straight road impeded progress. Still 1 gear to go ..................... although rate of acceleration at this point was declining.

Ride quality is poor, rear pre-load fully soft and still no static sag. Didn't think lighter exhaust & battery would make that much difference.

Played with rebound but high speed compression is too hard (no adjustment). Tyre patters, ride is choppy. Also need rear ride height adjustment, have dropped triple clamps 10mm but still needs quicker turn in.

Don't want to spend a squillion but that Extreme tech shock on the Rossapurro Stelvio / Motard, looks the goods.