Rear shock absorber assembly

[Bebe]

While I was cleaning my Breva V 1100 (2006) the other day, I noticed that the bottom assembly system of the rear shock absorber has some lateral play. With the bike on the centre stand, I can move it by hand when I give it a strong push (and pull). There are approximately 1.5 mm gaps at the attachment to the swing arm and to the frame. The gaps at the shock absorber unit and at the triangular connecting assembly are approximately 0.8 -1.0 mm. I checked the self-locking nuts, and they seem to be tight.



I took the bike to a qualified mechanic who suggested that I get the entire rear shock absorber assembly replaced; it is apparently worn out – with 43,000 km on the clock. The estimated cost for parts (NOT including the shock absorber and spring) is approximately US$ 600 – 700.



1 Shock absorber - - - - 05550230 1
2 Screw w/ flange M10x80 - - - - AP8152398 1
3 Double conrod - - - - 05560330 1
4 Double connecting rod pin L25 - - - - AP8135924 1
5 Needle bearing - - - - AP8110066 7
6 Oil seal D18x24x3 - - - - AP8110068 8
7 Double connecting rod pin L47 - - - - 05562030 1
8 Double connecting rod pin - - - - AP8135608 1
9 Hex socket screw M10x82 - - - - AP8152397 1
10 T bush * - - - - AP8121155 1
11 Self-locking nut M10* - - - - AP8152301 3
12 Hex screw M10x47 - - - - AP8152147 1
13 Curved spring washer * - - - - AP8150292 1
14 Single conrod comp. - - - - 05562430 1
15 Screw w/ flange M10x85 - - - - AP8152482 1
16 Screw w/ flange M10x95 - - - - AP8152396 1

Any thoughts or advice?

Many thanks,
Bebe

 

[jr1967]

I think he has a problem with play in the linkages. The factory installs them pretty much dry I found out....
I have been able to source all seals and needle bearings through general bearing suppliers, exept for the needle bearing inner races, which are just hardened bushing really. Those were Guzzi-spec only, were expensive and took quite a while to appear from far away. In my case the parts were for my Quota linkages, you might be luckier with sourcing parts for your Breva.
Most bearings you can find on the SKF site or google for example 26x20x16 (just an example of a bearing size(DxdxW) - I don't know what's on your bike) and see what pops up.
Good Luck, JR

 

[GrahamNZ]

Bebe

Sad news indeed.
Did the mechanic dismantle the linkage?
Do you know if any seals are missing?
Do you know if the pivots and bearings had adequate lubrication?

If I had your problem and intended to keep the bike for quite a while I'd change the system like this:
Have bronze bushes made up at a machine shop to replace the needle roller bearings. Include holes at the greasing points!
Have M6 grease nipples fitted to all linkage component eyes to allow for regular greasing.

The last bike I had with the above system was a 1997 Triumph Trophy. I did over 100,000km on it and the friend who bought it has added another 40,000km and thanks to those grease nipples, the system is still sweet. A bit messy but worth it. All bikes should have grease nipples on their linkages. Many top bikes don't employ linkages. I wonder why!

Let's hear what you decide to do.

 

[Brian UK]

Surely if it's only lateral movement, and not radial, there will be nothing wrong with the bearings? All you may need are some shim washers to remove the lateral play. (And some grease to lube the bearings).
I have found in the past that some mechanics are very quick to say the whole lot want's replacing, when sometimes only a minor replacement is all that's needed. This situation sometimes is proportional to the profit involved.

 

[GrahamNZ]

Brian

I agree with you completely. But we often do agree.

The reason I asked Bebe had done any dismantling was to determine if something is missing from the assembly, such as the oilseals or washers. As there is lateral play though it's likely that water has entered the system and done the needle roller bearings no good. No reference to radial play play by Bebe or the mechanic, so the bearings may be OK. If the system did include all the correct parts initially, wear would normally be radial rather than lateral, so my guess is that the oilseals or washers were missed out or the oilseals have failed for some reason.

If the bearings are shot, I'd opt for the bronze bush system complete with grease nipples.

Fingers crossed for Bebe. He's suffered enough already with his bike and its servicing so perseverence is one of his strong suits. He's a lovely chap by the way, and deserves better.

PS Brian
I'm still trying to track down Slilent Bloc, or equivalent, bonded bushes for both ends of the CARC torque arm.

 

[draidt]

GrahamNZ wrote:

Brian

I agree with you completely. But we often do agree.

The reason I asked Bebe had done any dismantling was to determine if something is missing from the assembly, such as the oilseals or washers. As there is lateral play though it's likely that water has entered the system and done the needle roller bearings no good. No reference to radial play play by Bebe or the mechanic, so the bearings may be OK. If the system did include all the correct parts initially, wear would normally be radial rather than lateral, so my guess is that the oilseals or washers were missed out or the oilseals have failed for some reason.

If the bearings are shot, I'd opt for the bronze bush system complete with grease nipples.

Fingers crossed for Bebe. He's suffered enough already with his bike and its servicing so perseverence is one of his strong suits. He's a lovely chap by the way, and deserves better.

PS Brian
I'm still trying to track down Slilent Bloc, or equivalent, bonded bushes for both ends of the CARC torque arm.

Graham;
Here is your elusive Silent Block, I received in the mail today from one of our parts suppliers in the US total price was just under $20.00 US and it took about a week; It is listed in the Sport 1200 8V parts manual that can be downloaded from the Teo Lamiers site.
It is Guzzi part number 883045.
The Torque arm is from a parted out 07 Norge that I got for $4.95 plus shipping US, In the next couple of weeks I will get the old one pressed out and the new one installed, so any comparison between the stock and new bushing is a way off yet.

 

[motobob]

So then whats the silent block supposed to do? I am guessing it will be just like any other rubber bushed sleeve and allow for some minor movement to possibly smooth out the drive line a bit?
Bob

 

[Kevin.NZ]

Hi Bebe,
I have just taken my linkage apart on my breva (20,000Kms) as I too have a fair amount of lateral play in the yoke where it joins the frame but I think this is normal and ok. Lateral movement here forms no part in the operation of the suspension. All my seals are in place and in good order, plenty of grease in there and the steel pins are shiney and unpitted. There are no shims or washers there either. The job took 15 min, support the wheel with a rope tied to the grab rails to stop the CARC from dropping. 13,14 and a 15mm spanner required

 

[Bebe]

Thank you all for your good advice and the kind words.

I have been back to the mechanic, and he confirmed that there is noticeable radial play in the linkages. With the bike on the centre stand, lifting the rear swing arm and CARC (it is heavy!!) you can see, feel and hear the movement (radial play?)……

Kevin:
Thank you for your e-mail and the chat. It will be fun to compare our bikes, this way we can definitely figure out what the story is with the play in my Breva’s rear shock linkages.

I have found out that all parts that may be needed for the linkages are available at the Stein-Dinse online shop. They have a wide range of parts for the Breva and other Guzzis, shipment may take only a few weeks.


http://www.stein-dinse.com/eliste/index.php

http://www.stein-dinse.com/eliste/index ... 77&gr=efef

Thanks again for the helpful comments!

Happy riding,
Bebe

 

[GrahamNZ]

Bebe

Sorry to hear that your linkage has radial play too. I've just checked mine again and everything feels 100% perfect with no detectable play anywhere and virtually no signs of lubricant bleeding. Your report (with photos!) on what is found upon disassembly is awaited with interest.

So now there are three Auckland Breva owners as members here. Soon you could start a club! Kevin comes across well and your meeting with him should be enjoyable. Wish I was there.

 

[Brian UK]

So what you now have to do Bebe, is to isolate the faulty link. Chances are that only one bearing has gone, and that replacing the whole lot is way OTT. And then, as Graham says, repair may well be the better option.

Just also confirm that you are checking this by lifting the CARC, and not the back wheel. I get a knock and apparent movement when lifting the wheel, but as already documented elsewhere, this is a faulty CARC bearing.

 

[Kevin.NZ]

Bebe ,
there needs to be a small amount of lateral movement otherwise the "knuckle joint" would bind on the mounting point on the frame and the mounting on the swinging arm. The pins are fractionally longer than the joint and are held securely in place in the mountings by the bolts through them, the knuckle joint "floats" if you get my drift on the needle rollers. All will be revealed next week good or bad.
Kevin

 

[Bebe]

Thank you Kevin for sorting this out! I enjoyed the Guzzi experience.

We took the linkages apart. The needle bearings seemed to be ok, very smooth with plenty of grease. The connecting rod pins were smooth as well, no pitting, and the oil seals looked ok. There was no radial play.

However, we found some scuffing on one side of the conrods, how could this be explained? Does it matter? I recall that the rear suspension was a bit “loose” when I bought the bike three years ago, was fixed by the local Guzzi dealer at the 1000 km service.

Photos below:

 

[GrahamNZ]

Bebe

All very interesting. You say that you and Kevin found no radial play but earlier you reported that a mechanic said that there was radial play. Was the mechanic wrong? Good that there was plenty of grease and that the seals were found OK.

Does what you found matter? IMHO, yes. Galling like that shows that something is out of alignment or moving incorrectly.

What to do? Taking it that there is no radial play and that the various components appear to be OK, some suggestions to check out:

Are the needle-roller bearing outer-races tight in the mounting eyes? It's important that they are held tightly and in the correct position. If one (or more) is loose, refitting the race with Loctite Bearing Mount could be the cure.

Are the needle-roller bearing outer-races located correctly in the mounting eyes? It's important that they are or the assembly will operate out of alignment. If one (or more) is out of location it should be able to press it into the correct position.

Are the swinging-arm bearings free from tangible play? That can be checked by trying to move the CARC sideways in relation to the bike frame. The bearings are adjusted for end-float from the right-hand side after removal of the side-plate holding the footrests etc.

Is the suspension unit's top mounting bolt tight? If not then the unit may be moving about enough to cause stress lower in the system. It can be accessed easily enough.

I don't recall you ever saying that the bike had crashed or even fallen over, but if it had then that could be a remotely likely cause.

Even more remotely the cause might be an out-of-alignment during factory assembly.

Regards
Graham

 

[Kevin.NZ]

Hi Graham and Bebe,

While we had the unit stripped down we looked at the steel pins and needle rollers, all the rollers were in place, we didnt remove any rollers as they all looked ok. The scuffing you can see i believe took place early on in ownership because the pic you see with my hands in view if that bolt is loose the yoke will move enough to foul the knuckle.

There was no movement on the CARC that we could determine and we did check the top suspension mounting bolt and found it nice and tight.

The bike hasnt been in an accident, I did notice on a couple of the pins there were marks of the needle rollers, more a shine than a mark, running your nail over it it was perfectly smooth, Bebe seems to have the rear suspension quite hard and on reflection may be there isnt enough movement in the linkage to fully spread the load.

Saying all that, we repacked the bearings with plenty of grease, reassembled the complete unit and bolted it up nice and tight. No Radial play was found and the unit was 100% operational as Bebe got home ok.
Thunderbirds are go.

Cheers Kevin

 

[Penis Rotor]

Slather some grease on it, put it back together and go ride.

Sorry, this looks like the classic case pf someone trying to find a non-existant problem.

You've taken it apart, found that all the bearings can move freely and that when you lift the swingarm there is no play up and down and no wear in the supporting bolts. so what is the problem? The bloody shock can't be mounted *solidly* between the yokes with no lateral movement otherwise it would bind in service. OF course there are wear shadows on the ox-bow linkage and the other alloy bits, they sit out there in the weather and grime and rub against each other with grit in between, of course they aren't going to look *New*

Can I ask? Had you noticed any deterioration in the handling? Felt anything amiss? If not why obssess about this stuff? I'm atuned enough to my bikes to KNOW when something is wrong but I don't go taking it half to pieces every week or two trying to find something wrong! Good God! Put it back together, put the bloody key in it and go for a ride!!!!

Christ on a Bicycle!!!!!:angry:

Pete

 

[GrahamNZ]

Sorry I spoke.