Wont Start...

[sanddweller]

OK,, there's a couple of threads on this, on different sites, but I'm not sure I've isolated the problem.

Started yesterday early evening when I noticed headlights didn't come on when started the bike.
I had had this before, and replaced the Light Logic Relay (NARVA brand) . Figured it was the same. Anyway, it was just on dusk so figured I'd get home in time without drama, without headlights. (Parking lights and tail lights were ok).

On the way, I stopped, but then bike would not restart. Battery was too low. Recalled issue with 30amp fuse, lights, charging, etc, but 30amp fuse was fine.
After some fiddling*, managed to get a jump from my son - and got home. He mentioned too that my brake lights weren't working also, although tail light was ok.

I've checked all the fuses etc, and all were ok - except the tiny #1 auxiliary 10amp fuse had blown. Replaced that, and headlights and brake lights work again when engine running. But still have the problem failing to start.

So figured today, I'd just replace all 3 4/5 pin relays with new BOSCH relays. Did that, but no cure.

*I found that when I turn on the ignition, there is zero response when pressing the start button. However, with ignition turned ON, if I remove and replace the #4 "StartUp Maintenance" relay, then the bike starts 'clicking' (see video) - I think the starter solenoid, in time with the #3 "StartUp" relay - about 1 click per 0.75 second. So I swapped the #3 and #6 (Fog light) relays to eliminate a fault there, but still the same.

Now, while the bike is 'clicking' in this state, it CAN be started by pressing the starter button. If then killed, it cant be restarted unless put back in that 'clicking' state by remove/replace #4.

OK so doing some reading, I suspect the problem is that which is described under the post "Modern "No Start" issue solution

Without a bunch of testing, and hours checking, can anyone throw some light on this (maybe experienced it and know exactly what the issue is..)?

Video demonstrating problem...



by the way.. in that thread, it is mentioned about ECU controlled starting, requiring only a momentary push on the starter switch , where the ECU will then keep that starter motor going until the engine starts.. I've never experienced that, and must push and hold the starter button until the engine starts.

 

[canuck1969]

Check your battery. I am betting that it is dead. The aux fuse that you are referring to is the trigger for the lighting relay. Without that the lighting relay will not fire and therefore knock out your lighting and the exciter for the generator. It has the same affect as blowing the 30 amp fuse. The 30 amp supplies the power for the relay, the aux fuse supplies the trigger power for the relay. Loose either one and your loose the generator.

Put all the relays back where they were, make sure the aux fuse is still good (since you don't know what blew that) and charge or jump the battery. When you get it running, check the charging voltage. Should be in the upper 13's.

As for the ECU controlled starting, the 2010 does not have that feature. It was only for the earlier models. The starter spins as long as you hold the button.

 

[GuzziMoto]

It sounds like you had an issue with your headlight circuit, and by riding it that way it did not charge the battery. That would make sense for a Guzzi as they have been known to have the VR sense the battery charge state through the headlight circuit.
The push and hold, if it works on your bike (it does not on mine) over rides the ecu sensing not enough voltage to start.

 

[canuck1969]

Check your battery. I am betting that it is dead. The aux fuse that you are referring to is the trigger for the lighting relay. Without that the lighting relay will not fire and therefore knock out your lighting and the exciter for the generator. It has the same affect as blowing the 30 amp fuse. The 30 amp supplies the power for the relay, the aux fuse supplies the trigger power for the relay. Loose either one and your loose the generator.

Put all the relays back where they were, make sure the aux fuse is still good (since you don't know what blew that) and charge or jump the battery. When you get it running, check the charging voltage. Should be in the upper 13's.

As for the ECU controlled starting, the 2010 does not have that feature. It was only for the earlier models. The starter spins as long as you hold the button.

Sorry...meant to say the 2012 does not have that feature.

Also, the maintenance relay is what stops the bike from starting on low voltage to the ECU. When you pulled it, it tried to start even though the voltage was not enough for the ECU. There may been enough for one start....

Just charge the battery and see what happens.

 

[sanddweller]

Check your battery. I am betting that it is dead.

Thanks Canuck.
Thanks
Battery, after jump start had enough to get me home. Was reading 9.9v when I arrived. Stuck it straight on charger overnight so it was fully charged before I looked at it, then swapped in new relays and aux fuse.

The standing voltage reported on the dash since charge is 12.9v. With the engine running, its 14v.

Here's a further fun fact:
If I get it started, then use the kill switch to stop it, then turn the bike off, then on, then it wont start. However, if I don't use the kill switch, but use the key to turn it off, then next time I turn it on, the "click' starts, and I can use the start button to restart the bike. If I turn it on, then off without restarting then turning on yet again, it wont start (until I pull/replace the relay as shown in the video, and the'click' restarts).

 

[sanddweller]

It sounds like you had an issue with your headlight circuit, and by riding it that way it did not charge the battery. That would make sense for a Guzzi as they have been known to have the VR sense the battery charge state through the headlight circuit.
The push and hold, if it works on your bike (it does not on mine) over rides the ecu sensing not enough voltage to start.

Indeed. I should have checked the fuse before attempting to ride home w/o headlights instead of 'assuming' it was the relay I previously had to replace.

The Aux fuse "A" that was blown, according to the service manual TEXT should be 15Amp (mine was 10Amp - and I've never changed that before, in fact replaced with a new 10Amp also). Service manual diagram shows 10Amp - go figure.
That fuse also covers ""Stop" [brake Lights], Horn, coil, GPS (none connected], hazard button lighting, coils, light relay, passing[?], heated grips. I guess the issue could have been with any one of those circuits. There have been no recent changes to anything.

 

[canuck1969]

Wow. That is a new one. It is weird that the starter solenoid does that. If I had to guess at this point I would look at the starter relay. Something is not holding properly and keeps dropping out. Also look for loose grounds on the starter itself. The power keeps dropping out. I have no idea at this point other than making sure all the relays are good. Failing that it may be a glitch in the ecu but that is a wild ass guess. Try disconnecting the battery for a bit. I doubt it will do anything but can't hurt.

Blowing the fuse is a start. Only thing of interest for that fuse is the lighting relay. That relay controls a lot of the startup sequence of the bike. Do the lights flash when it is clicking like that.

 

[sanddweller]

Wow. That is a new one. It is weird that the starter solenoid does that. If I had to guess at this point I would look at the starter relay. Something is not holding properly and keeps dropping out. Also look for loose grounds on the starter itself. The power keeps dropping out. I have no idea at this point other than making sure all the relays are good. Failing that it may be a glitch in the ecu but that is a wild ass guess. Try disconnecting the battery for a bit. I doubt it will do anything but can't hurt.

Blowing the fuse is a start. Only thing of interest for that fuse is the lighting relay. That relay controls a lot of the startup sequence of the bike. Do the lights flash when it is clicking like that.

Yep, one of the first things I tried was swapping the Starter Relay and the Fog light relay (these are the same type 4 pin relay), but this made no difference. I'll try disconnecting the battery entirely for a bit, and cross fingers. :-/

Am I right to question why power would be going to the starter solenoid at all, without the starter switch depressed? (and hence the starter relay activated). I wonder if it could be a problem in the starter switch itself. Ill see if I can bypass that and see what happens.

 

[canuck1969]

The logic around the Maintenace relay is not well understood (at least I have never seen a good explanation and the diagram does not explain it either). I know part of its use is as a low voltage cut off so the ecu won't send a start signal unless it is above 10 volts or so. Removing the relay as you did and re inserting it may be normal. I have seen starters do that on low voltage as there is not enough power to hold the solenoid in and start. Why it does it without pushing the button I don't know but removing the Maintenace relay may cause that.

When you turn the key on what is the voltage at the battery. The display does not work properly without the bike running. On mine it will show full voltage on the display with the key on and bike not running but that is wrong as there is a draw on the system. Need to measure it at the battery itself.

Just trying to eliminate the simple stuff first

 

[canuck1969]

The logic around the Maintenace relay is not well understood (at least I have never seen a good explanation and the diagram does not explain it either). I know part of its use is as a low voltage cut off so the ecu won't send a start signal unless it is above 10 volts or so. Removing the relay as you did and re inserting it may be normal. I have seen starters do that on low voltage as there is not enough power to hold the solenoid in and start. Why it does it without pushing the button I don't know but removing the Maintenace relay may cause that.

When you turn the key on what is the voltage at the battery. The display does not work properly without the bike running. On mine it will show full voltage on the display with the key on and bike not running but that is wrong as there is a draw on the system. Need to measure it at the battery itself.

Just trying to eliminate the simple stuff first

Just looked at the drawing and re-read your original post. Says you replaced relays but did you use the right relays. For example, the maintenance relay has a diode in the trigger line and the aux and starter relays do not. Even through they are all 4 pin, the maintenance relay needs to have the diode so current only flow in the direction it needs. That could explain the low voltage going to the starter relay and making it chatter as the maintenance relay is getting a trickle voltage. When you then push the starter button, you are then sending full voltage.

Put the original relay back in for the maintenance relay (or did you end up putting that one some where else. The drawing on the relay should show the diode. May be the original reason it was not starting was low voltage and swapping all the relays just introduced a red herring. It will be something simple, just need get everything back to original first.

 

[sanddweller]

Just looked at the drawing and re-read your original post. Says you replaced relays but did you use the right relays. For example, the maintenance relay has a diode in the trigger line and the aux and starter relays do not. Even through they are all 4 pin, the maintenance relay needs to have the diode so current only flow in the direction it needs. That could explain the low voltage going to the starter relay and making it chatter as the maintenance relay is getting a trickle voltage. When you then push the starter button, you are then sending full voltage.

Put the original relay back in for the maintenance relay (or did you end up putting that one some where else. The drawing on the relay should show the diode. May be the original reason it was not starting was low voltage and swapping all the relays just introduced a red herring. It will be something simple, just need get everything back to original first.

Thanks Canuck.
Ill check that in the morning (now past 1am). You may be right.. I put new bosch 5 pin relays in. I had read they were all the same. They do have the same pin-outs, and the maintenance relay pin socket just has a blank for the center 5th pin, so accepts the 5 pin relay although the center pin is never connected. I wasnt aware of the diode. :-/

 

[Lannis]

Thanks Canuck.
Ill check that in the morning (now past 1am). You may be right.. I put new bosch 5 pin relays in. I had read they were all the same. They do have the same pin-outs, and the maintenance relay pin socket just has a blank for the center 5th pin, so accepts the 5 pin relay although the center pin is never connected. I wasnt aware of the diode. :-/

The only thing I would add to all this good and thoughtful advice is "Check the Battery". Not just with a voltmeter or the bike's voltmeter, but with a battery tester. SOMETIMES batteries fail in such a way that they will show 12.65 volts or more under no load, BUT under a starter load, trying to supply 50 or more amps, they behave erratically - voltage drops very low, onboard computers and electronics don't function, etc.

I have a battery tester hanging on the shop wall and the FIRST thing I do when doping out an electrical problem on any of my six road bikes is to test the battery. IF the battery will not ONLY hold 12.6+ volts BUT hold 12+ volts UNDER LOAD for 6 seconds or more, then it's good and you can go on to the real problem. The $100 battery tester paid for itself in proper diagnoses a looooong time ago ... !

Lannis

 

[sanddweller]

The only thing I would add to all this good and thoughtful advice is "Check the Battery". Not just with a voltmeter or the bike's voltmeter, but with a battery tester. SOMETIMES batteries fail in such a way that they will show 12.65 volts or more under no load, BUT under a starter load, trying to supply 50 or more amps, they behave erratically - voltage drops very low, onboard computers and electronics don't function, etc.

I have a battery tester hanging on the shop wall and the FIRST thing I do when doping out an electrical problem on any of my six road bikes is to test the battery. IF the battery will not ONLY hold 12.6+ volts BUT hold 12+ volts UNDER LOAD for 6 seconds or more, then it's good and you can go on to the real problem. The $100 battery tester paid for itself in proper diagnoses a looooong time ago ... !

Lannis

Thanks Lannis.
Im pretty sure the battery is OK. its only a few months old. I dont have a dedicated battery tester, but I have a good charger that tests the battery to some extent (although not a 50amp load).

 

[sanddweller]

JPut the original relay back in for the maintenance relay

Hi Canuck..
DOH!.. That fixed it. :embarrassed:
I know I read a post somewhere (wildguzzi, maybe) that said the 5 pins could be used in place of the fours. Ill search again for that. Trap for young players. Dont believe everything you read.. Without awareness of the diode, seemed logical enough
Thanks for your guidance and assistance, Canuck. Appreciated.

 

[canuck1969]

Excellent news.........always look for the simplest solution with these bikes. 9 times out of 10 it is the right answer.

Now go ride and enjoy.

 

[sanddweller]

Relay confusion aside, the original problem was a blown #1 Aux fuse.

I replaced the fuse, and its blown twice since.
I've not found anything untoward - everything seems to be working as expected.

Heated grips are off, but work ok.
lo/hi Lights, brake lights, horn all ok. I don't have GPS wired in.

Now, one thing I did notice was the hazard switch light.
I noticed it was very dimly lit even when hazards not activated. I suspect this is not normal, but I really dont recall if this is normally lit?
The hazard lights work normally when activated. Should the switch illuminate/flash with the hazard lights? (it doesnt).

Now, looking at the guts of this switch, if it is problematic, it looks like its not a simple fix. The LED is on a tiny board in the switch, but appears to be permanently fixed to the wiring harness. There's no plug at or near the switch. it looks like the complete RH handlebar control unit would need to be replaced!
I suspect it is plugged somewhere. I haven't traced it yet. Hoping its easy to get at. If it is the hazard switch light shorted somewhere , hopefully i can just disconnect it (not really necessary)

more digging to be done...

 

[canuck1969]

The switch is dimly lit. I don't think it flashes with the hazards but I am not at my bike to verify. There should be a connector for the switch according to the drawing but not sure where it is.

I really don't think this is your issue. This sounds like a sporadic wire short from a damaged wire.. From your description, it does not happen instantaneously which you would think it would if it was the switch or light. You should look for a rub spot in the wiring harness. I attached a TSB on possible wear spots including guarding for the aux fuse block You should already have these protectors but verify just in case your bike got through the system with out it.

Even though you don't have a GPS, check that wire, It is located on the left side above the GPS. THis wire is live at all times with the key one. Don't suspect the heated grips as the wires from the harness are not live unless they are switched on. That leaves the main harness and then the brake and tail lights. My bet is on a wear spot on the main harness. Not that hard to trace but this is going to take some work on your part. Electrical faults are never easy. Especially ones that are sporadic.

 

[sanddweller]

I've checked each of the mods in the doc you sent, Canuck. All seems ok - although mines a 2012, and I wonder if all apply. The "Main cable Harness protection" isnt applied, but the cable is secured with a tie, fixed to the headlight support bracket. The frame shield is applied, but the cable runs slightly above that, and theres no apparent wear on that. I've checked everywhere(?) I cant find the GPS cable plug. Any clues on that? ( I can find the heated grip connectors close behind the ECU, but the GPS plug eludes me..)
:-S

 

[canuck1969]

Should be on the left side of the bike (as you sit on it) behind the side panel on top of the ECU. It has a green connector. Found this picture from another site that should help.

Unless you are not the first owner and someone has already used it as a power source. It is a pretty long wire so should be coiled up as it is in the pic somewhere??

 

[sanddweller]

Found the GPS plug. Don't know why I didnt see it before - OK so the GPS cable and plug seem ok.
There was one thing - the cable to the tail light had been patched, by my dealer, to splice in cable for the stop lights in my GIVI top box. I pulled the tail apart tonight to check these. The joints seemed ok. The wires had been soldered together, then wrapped in electrical tape. The tape felt a little "greasy" - although not grease, just the glue broken down i think. I doubt this was shorting out, but ive cleaned that up and re wrapped it. Ill get out for another road test tomorrow, but taking spare fuses with, as I havent found anything to fix yet. :-/