C14 - Stop the moaning whale - Tip/Evap

[GTM®]

Below is a general outline on how to free the tank ventilation; Not only rid it of that awful moaning sound when sitting in the sun, but to allow it to fuel better by plugging the intake air leak in 10 simple steps. Should take ~1-2 hrs max.

Step 1: Unbolt the chrome tank trim.


Step 2: Remove trim, by sliding back towards the seat. Tab shown below that secures it, along with the rubber bushing, just above center of the gas cap opening in the picture.


Step 3: Unbolt steering head covering from the tank.


Step 4: Remove lower clips of head covering. These push-clips can be popped out by pushing from the inside out as shown below.


Step 5: Pull back head covering. We use a small bungee strap instead of removing them, which you can do if you prefer.


Step 6: Remove the tank bolt. WARNING/NOTE (not shown) remove the outer cosmetic valve cover covers as to not scratch them.


Step 7: Lift the tank up and slightly rearward to expose the tip valve, which resides on the upper right front of the tank (as shown below). The tank does not need to be removed, but can be if you'd like to ease some of the frustration. You can either remove the valve or pop it apart (by heating it and using a small screw-driver along the locking seam) and remove the internals as shown in the next step below. Or you can use a straight fitting. You may need a set of additional hose clamps.


Tip valve internals:
While you have the tip-valve apart, I recommend making sure that the breather line will flow air when blown into in the downward direction (towards the evap cann). More then one have shown to be plugged. If yours is plugged, be sure to do step 10 below. Also see the new pinched line photos below.


Plugging the leak:

Step 8: After removing the right side throttle body trim, the vacuum port can be seen on the intake body plenum.


Step 9: You can either cut the hose downstream and use a bolt to plug the line, or best to remove the breather banjo, and plug the hole with a M6 x 1.0 bolt.


Step 10 (Optional but recommended): Since the evap can is well buried under the battery, easy access to the breather tubes can be found under the left side starter cover. Remove the cover by unbolting the four (4) allen-head bolts (and popping off the shift linkage by removing the simple circlip), and you will see the lines shown below. The line with the two crimp-clamps and brass connector is from the intake plenum (and can be removed if desired), and the yellow arrow line is the tip valve. Follow this line rearwards, and I recommend cutting it where it turns upwards just past the swing arm pivot close to where it disappears into the plastic shroud, and secure it facing downwards. Double check by blowing into it and be sure it exhales easily to be sure it is not pinched. Re-assemble and ride. The End (Kind of, see below).


Folks, an update to post here (9.20). I had a 1400 in the shop today with 100 miles on it. On the line from the tip valve to the evap canister, the line had been pinched completely closed by the side peg plates, so the tank was not venting at all on this one. The bike lives in Las Vegas, so you might imagine what torture it provided for our new friend Ross. So, FYI, check yours if you are still struggling with tank venting issues, even if you do the first part of this thread. Pics below show position and an attempt to show how pinched.

 

[jbhotchkiss]

Thanks for this, Todd. Nicely documented and a very useful modification.

 

[Avvocato]

Todd, I can't get my tip valve apart. Any secrets?

 

[GTM®]

Todd, I can't get my tip valve apart. Any secrets?

Heat gun or hair dryer helps, and either small screw drivers or I use hose pliers... It takes some force, but not much. It comes apart at the seam, and will snap back together.

 

[kiwi dave]

Todd, I can't get my tip valve apart. Any secrets?

I used a hot air gun to make mine more pliable. Came apart easily then.

 

[Avvocato]

Thanks. I'll try using my heat gun.

 

[BillW]

Thanks for the instructions on this mod Todd.
Went very smooth and quick.
I disassembled my valve with a little help of a flat screwdriver and popped open easily.

 

[ploose]

All,

What is the purpose of this modification? Besides whale noise, what other downside is there? After all the valves are in place by design?

 

[GuzziHero]

I used to have an FZR1000R that hooted like an owl when it was cooling down. I loved it! Is there a video of this whale song anywhere?

 

[abbienormal]

If I had thought this through more and also not been so apprehensive about cutting hoses on my new bike it would have went smoother. It took me 2 hours but over 30 minutes I think was trying to get the clamps off that stupid tip valve. after I cut the hose down below I realized I could pull the valve up where I could reach it a lot easier. There was also a lot of think before you do this.
I also thank you for the blow and pressure test as I could see where this could pinch easily. No, I didn't, but nice to be sure. I had to try 2 different hose clamps I had to get the hose clamped on the brass fitting as it is smaller than the tip valve fittings.
Thanks for the info.

 

[abbienormal]

I have ridden the bike with the modification and I am fairly certain it runs smoother down low. As Todd said it removes the measured air leak and I think there is a difference. I say think as I was off the bike for over 5 weeks between before and after due to several reasons.

I forgot to mention. While you can use the brass fitting that you remove to replace the tip valve it is for a smaller diameter hose. That is why I had to use different sized hose clamps. I recommend getting a larger one ahead of time but I'll be useless here and say I am not sure of the size.

 

[Little Don]

Mine moans very often, but not all the time. It is not sun dependent either. It lives in my barn and, when I came back from 2 weeks in Hawaii (where I met the Ali'i motorcycle club) it was still moaning after 2 weeks inside!

 

[dennisj]

GuzziHero. I've got an audio .mp3 file, I also tried it in .m4a which is MPEG-4 encoding. Neither file format is suitable for uploading to this site. Sorry.

 

[WroomWroom]

Hi all,

My Cali 1400 is moaning like crazy and I'd love to try this solution, but a couple of things are not clear to me based on a (very careful) reading:

1. What exactly are we doing with the tip valve? Are we taking it off, taking it apart, doing something with it and then putting it back on? Or are we simply taking the tip valve out and throwing it away? If so, what do we do with the two hoses attached to the tip valve?
2. How does step 10 relate to the whole process, is it connected to the same line that has the tip valve on it?
3. Where do the new hose clamps go? It seemed like I could do without the clamps (and one M6 to plug the hole in the throttle body where a little brass fitting was before)

Thanks!

 

[dennisj]

Wroom...,

1. I split my tip valve open and pulled the spring and rubber washer out, then I snapped it back together with the hoses still attached, put the tank back on and now enjoy no whale sounds any longer.

2. The way this evaporative emissions system works (of which the tip valve is a part) is to vent the fuel tank's volatile vapors out through the tip valve to a charcoal canister underneath the air box in front of the battery. the charcoal canister chamber is then put into negative pressure by a separate, albeit thinner rubber hose that passes between the charcoal canister and the starboard side intake throttle body. I did not pull the air box out to verify this narrative is correct but that is how most automotive Evaporative Emission Systems work so I assume the MG system is the same.

3. It all depends upon how you decide you want to plumb your system. In my case, I removed the rubber disk from the tip valve but kept the plastic holder intact, no clamps needed. On the throttle body circuit I separated the hose at the brass junction and put a steel bolt of suitable diameter in the hose leading to the throttle body and clamped the hose with the bolt to make it air tight.

This piece of the system (hose from throttle body to canister) seems like a potential circuit that would make the combustion mixture lean on the starboard cylinder. Maybe MG did research and figured the fuel tank vapors would compensate for that condition. However, if we separate the tip valve hose from the canister we deprive that circuit of the fuel laden vapors and would then definitely make the mixture lean. I think this is why everyone is sealing off the throttle body tap when they do this mod.

As for throwing anything on my Moto Guzzi away, I don't. I put the spring and rubber disk in a box I use for spare parts and accessories for this bike. I'm certain that getting specific MG parts is going to be a real bitch should I ever decide I want to restore original function to anything I modify.

The other day I walked into my garage about an hour after returning from a two hundred mile ride and the whole garage smelled like gasoline. I opened the door to vent it out. This is the first and only time this has happened since I modified my circuit 2500 miles ago. If it happens again I may have to rethink this mod.

Someone said they felt their ride was smoother after the mod. I did not notice this, but my bike has always been smooth. I've been getting 30-32 MPG since I first purchased this bike, so it seems that I'm not running an overly lean mixture as some have stated. A lean mixture would run rough for sure.

Den.

 

[abbienormal]

I removed the valve. I disconnected the hoses and used the brass barb that joined the other hoses to make the hose long enough to reach near the ground. If I did it again I would get a larger barb to join them as the brass one is slightly smaller though it worked fine with clamps. I then plugged the hole in the manifold with a 6mm bolt as recommended using a 6mm sealing washer from a Honda drain screw for a front fork. All was fine after that.

Dennis: The smell you got I never ran into with my Tour but I have a Honda PC800 and if I fill the tank all the way up on a hot engine then park it I sometimes get the smell. The cooler gas you pump in from the underground tanks expands due to the hot engine and the fumes have to go somewhere. I have filled the PC to the brim and driven the mile home then parked it after a ride. Later there was actual fuel under it, not just fumes.

 

[WroomWroom]

Thanks so much dennisj and abbienormal, especially Dennis for such a great write-up! I now fully understand what's happening with those hoses now, and why I did each of the steps needed for the procedure.

In the end I think I successfully applied the fix. Tried opening the tip valve while it was on the bike and it wouldn't budge, heat gun or not. I then realized I could easily open up the hose clamps and take the whole valve out. Bought a brass pipe fitting from Home Depot along with two new clamps (brass fitting was a bit smaller diameter) and and M6 screw. Re-fitted the gas tank hose without the valve, took the L pipe/screw out of the throttle body, put the M6 in with some extreme condition sealant.

One question: I did not plug the hose with that small brass L fitting I took out of throttle body, should I do that?

I also ended up doing the alternator cable fix (found people talk about it here on the site, saw that my bike didn't have the fix, realized that it might be the reason why the bike would turn the dial off, then back on in MENU mode and with hazard signals on, every other morning when I turn the bike on).

I am riding daily, so these are my fairly accurate assessments of effects of these two fixes:

1. Bike started noticeably easier when cold, with no "reset" problem going on. Subsequent startups were flawless but that's how it's always been when a bike is warm. I'll keep paying attention to the cold starts, not enough data to be sure the alt wire fix worked.
2. The engine started working noticeably better, easier and MUCH more powerful. I got up to 60mph in 3rd without even realizing it, and when I did realize the speed I'm going I had to look twice to make sure I'm running in Touring and not Veloce mode! I was rather shocked at the difference before and after. The bike now literally feels younger and nimbler! Ride was much more engaging and exciting than a day ago.
3. Before the fix, the bike would run normally when cold but after 10-15 miles and some high traffic riding, it would start beating irregularly when stopped on a red light, in a couple of instances it even choke itself out and shut off because I didn't bump the revs. Very unpleasant, especially considering that that first pull off the traffic light is inevitably much less powerful and jumpier. My test ride was two hours of heavy highway and city riding, and not once did the bike even try to choke! Much smoother idle, seems to be working as Mandello imagined it to work.
4. My bike also suffers from the hanging throttle issue, and after warm-up it would get very frequent (at least a couple of 3rd to 2nd gear downshifts go haywire during a 20 minute ride). I kind of learned to expect it and use the brake while in 2nd gear to bring the RPMs down, so I was very happy to see the bike slowing the engine down past that "Devil's Pass" right below 3000rpm when the engine used to "bump" the revs and stay hanging. Same two hour ride, haven't seen the throttle hang once. I can still kind of feel a very slight rev bump when dropping right below 3000rpm, but this time it doesn't hang around there, it nicely slows down to idle speeds.

I just ordered Todd's PC-V fueling kit too, I have a feeling next week I'll have a bike that only looks the same as my bike, but in reality his personality grew up from a lazy couch potato into a gentleman MMA fighter in an Italian suit.

Thanks for the answers again!

 

[dennisj]

Wroom,

I'm not sure what "some extreme condition sealant" means, but I hope you only used a little and that it wasn't Locktite Red thread locker. If you used that it could be trouble in the future, Locktite Red is sort of a permanent, high temp product. The reality is that while it is important to seal this opening, the threads in the port do a good job there. If you used a hex head bolt you'll have little trouble removing it if you need to, but the extreme sealant was overkill.

Consider putting some details on your profile page, I don't know what year your Cali is. Since you just bought it maybe it is a 2015 or 2016. Mine is a 2014, each of these years are essentially the same bike with very few if any changes, but the ECM code would be different. Since you live in California, with one of the most restrictive state emission laws, it may be the case that your bike has a more lean mixture mapping.

What sort of fuel efficiency do you get with your bike? How many miles do you have on it? I mentioned that in 3800 miles I've NEVER done better than 32 MPG on my bike. This leads me to believe that my ECM is programmed with some rather rich mixture maps. I've never had the sort of rough idle, stalling, "sticky throttle", surging or unimpressive performance. Based upon your description I think you may have had a break in your Evaporative Emissions circuit somewhere. Like the tank itself or the hose running from the throttle body back to the Evap tank, or even from the Evap tank up through the vent tube, tip valve line to the fuel tank. It just sounds like your bike was running very lean from the time you picked it up, especially by the fact that heat exacerbated the problem. Let me know about your fuel efficiency, that'll be a telltale clue. And, is it different now, after the fix?

The alternator "fix" was to solve issues if the ignition key was turned on for an extended period of time without the engine running. It's good you fixed it, but your dealer was supposed to do that for you before delivery, mine did. The prompt for entering a code is an entirely different and unrelated matter, it is covered in detail elsewhere on this forum. That "code" prompt is part of the final steps in setting up the security system. Check out the various discussions pertaining to "code" and "security" on this forum, they are very informative. I've made comments on this matter too.

Wow, you laid out some serious cash for Todd's PC-V fueling kit too. He has provided an awesome upgrade for these bikes and I'm considering it myself. But I want to ride through my first summer to see how bad the engine temperature gets before I commit $1200 to fixing it, I may not even have a problem. As it stands now I'm not running excessively lean as most who want the kit are. It may be the case I've got a golden fuel map in my ECM now.

At this point my only ECM complaint is the fact that my self canceling blinkers only cancel after .3 miles, they don't time out and cancel after 45 seconds as they should. I'm fearful of an ECM upgrade to fix my blinker cancelation circuit only to get a degraded fuel mapping. I'm conflicted and need to look into methods to backup and restore the ECM code before I raise this concern with my dealer.

Oh yea, your question about blocking off the hose after removing it from the throttle body: it doesn't matter, eliminated that side of the circuit when you disconnected the hose from the throttle body. HOWEVER, if your fuel tank vent tube is still connected to the Evaporative Emissions tank then you DO need to keep this tube open to the atmosphere, this is now the only source for allowing air to replace the void in your fuel tank as your engine consumes fuel. If you plug that opening, eventually your fuel tank will develop a negative pressure and prevent fuel from reaching the engine until you open the filler to equalize fuel tank pressure to ambient. Here's a test, try plugging the hose and if/when your engine stalls and won't restart, open the fuel tank cap and you'll hear air rush in, then it will start again and you'll know you need to unplug the hose.

Den.

 

[WroomWroom]

Hi Den,

The sealant I used is from the same manufacturer as Locktite Red but it's called Stik'n Seal - Extreme Conditions loctiteproducts.com/p/cntct_usns/overview/Loctite-Stik'n-Seal-Extreme-Conditions.htm

It's going to be fun trying to take that screw out if I ever need to.

I did not do the optional but recommended step 10 yet, and I left the hose unplugged too. I'm thinking of doing the step 10 when I install the PC-V.

I don't think my dealer was supposed to do the alternator "fix" simply because at the time I bought my bike (summer of 2014) that fix wasn't even announced, I think it's a 2015 thing. So my bike is a 2014 Touring, I've put around 11k miles on it so far. Went through two regular services and none of them bothered to do the alt fix, or put the new maps Moto Guzzi published recently The dealer I bought the bike from never contacted me about anything whatsoever, starting a couple of days after I took the bike out of their salon. Pretty bad experiences in that department, but if anything it made me put some time and effort into getting to know the bike's internals a bit more. So far I've put Mistral carbon fiber exhausts on and did the airbox mod along with a K&N filter (that's apart from these two latest fixes). Just got back from another ride and I'm still surprised at just how responsive it became in the whole range above 2k rpm. Still twitchy with that old ECU mapping "character", but I'm hoping Todd's system will iron those out.

As far as the cost goes I agree it's steep, but for my situation I think it's actually a better choice for me. I'm out of warranty and if I wanted the new maps I'd have to take a day off and go to one of those shops I had bad experiences with to get it done. That surely covers half of the cost, and the other half I outweigh with the fact that I'll have my own ECU uploader setup, that I'll do it on my own and learn some more about the bike, plus something tells me Todd's mapping puts engine and performance first while factory maps have a lot of different regulations to cover before they get to actually fixing the problem.

 

[dennisj]

Wroom, you're scaring me man, the link you provided for the "Stik'n Seal" makes the frightening statements: 1) ADHESIVE, 2) Not for metal-to-metal applications. I'm hoping you haven't ridden that bike very far and I would try to remove it if that were my bike. It might be nothing but honestly, you used the wrong product. If we are talking about using this product on the bolt in the throttle body, keep in mind that the inside of the throttle body is under negative pressure most of the time. I would not like to think of any of that stuff getting sucked into the engine, it will hit very hot valves/valve seats on the way in and MUCH hotter valves/valve seats on the way out. I would suggest not using anything, just the proper torque on the bolt.

As for the various modifications you've made to your bike, every one of them has altered the induction metrics. Most leading to increased flow. The default fuel maps will be way wrong under the new conditions, in fact you may have been experiencing the effects of putting your bike into "limp home mode". You need dynamic oxygen sensor input and dynamic fuel mixture control in the worst way. Todd's GT-Rx fueling package is a good way to get a closed loop dynamic fuel management modification, you are going in the right direction. Good luck with it; and please post your results on the forum. Todd did make a comment on one of his posts about the GT-Rx fueling package which does apply to the mods you've already made to your bike:

"I need to mention here, that even a bone stock bike really needs the fueling corrected (dealers cannot do this) in order to have a long, healthy life. Any modifications exacerbates the uber-lean fueling." (Todd)

Later my friend.
Den.