guess that noise....

[Chadlebowski]

Ok I will clear out the oil and keep monitoring it, and hope for the best.

With hindsight I can now see the error of my ways - short trips, often in the rain. Out of interest, what would be the ideal RPM range (beginning to think I've been on the low side since getting this bike)?

 

[Chadlebowski]

Yet another update:

Just opened left cylinder (only did the RH yesterday as I was peering over the edge of a vast gumption trap). Far less mayonnaise than the RHS had yesterday. Valve clearances absolutely spot on though - just the minutest amount of drag, and I remember having the same feel when they were set 5k miles ago.

Gave the bike a bit of a thrashing on the way into work this morning, will remember to give it a bit more wellie from now on.... Quite lucky really - it's much better that hearing I should slow down....

 

[mrcanns]

Yet another update:

Just opened left cylinder (only did the RH yesterday as I was peering over the edge of a vast gumption trap). Far less mayonnaise than the RHS had yesterday. Valve clearances absolutely spot on though - just the minutest amount of drag, and I remember having the same feel when they were set 5k miles ago.

Gave the bike a bit of a thrashing on the way into work this morning, will remember to give it a bit more wellie from now on.... Quite lucky really - it's much better that hearing I should slow down....[/QUOTE

I see this in mine, it gets use every day all weathers between 10 and 30 mile trips it's covered 35k now I keep the oil changed every 3k some days it sounds louder than others but the clearances don't move much on the rollers in mine, still seems to keep going better the further it goes, ride with ear Plugs but if you forget them it will worry you to death

 

[GuzziMoto]

I don't recall if the 8 valve motor has a thermostat for the oil cooler or not. If it does not, blocking off the oil cooler during colder / wetter weather should help get some temp into the oil. Getting temp in the oil will burn off the water that is turning your oil into mayo.

 

[WayneOrwig]

No, it does not have a thermostat. Sadly.

 

[John Warner]

There's a bit of discussion of Oil Temps over on the Adventure Rider Forum at the moment.
One owner reported a running Oil temp of around 172° ('F' I presume, he's in the U.S.), which is only 77°C, so not really enough.
I've modified the Banjo Bolt where the Oil Cooler line exits on the right side of the Block, I'll be fitting the Thermocouple of the Temp Gauge in there.

Blanked off at the moment, I need to sort out a mounting for the Readout end, and wire it in.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221713679669?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

[WayneOrwig]

There's a bit of discussion of Oil Temps over on the Adventure Rider Forum at the moment.
One owner reported a running Oil temp of around 172° ('F' I presume, he's in the U.S.), which is only 77°C, so not really enough.
I've modified the Banjo Bolt where the Oil Cooler line exits on the right side of the Block, I'll be fitting the Thermocouple of the Temp Gauge in there.

I have an oil temperature dipstick for my various Guzzis. You can't read it while under way, but it gives you an idea about what is going on, especially if you get stuff in hot traffic.
I've thought about covering the radiator. The remote gauge would let you cover the radiator, and know if you need to stop and uncover it real time.

 

[John Warner]

Researching a bit more about this, I've read that the Oil feed through the Cooler is only routed to the Heads to cool the areas around the Exhaust Valves, i.e. it isn't the main lubrication supply for the Valve-Gear.
If that's correct, then maybe blanking off part/all of the Cooler isn't the best option?

I'd ideally like to put a Sensor in the Head somewhere, maybe I'll do that at some point.

 

[WayneOrwig]

Researching a bit more about this, I've read that the Oil feed through the Cooler is only routed to the Heads to cool the areas around the Exhaust Valves, i.e. it isn't the main lubrication supply for the Valve-Gear.
If that's correct, then maybe blanking off part/all of the Cooler isn't the best option?

Yes, the cooled oil is passed through the head near the exhaust valves and dumped out there to cool them. Since it then quickly dumps back into the sump, it affects the sump oil temp a good bit, I'm sure.

Are you wanting oil temp, or head temps near the valves?

 

[GuzziMoto]

If your oil does not get considerably above 212 degrees F, or 100 degrees C, it will not boil off the water that collects, and your oil will turn into mayonnaise.
You do want to keep your oil from getting too hot, but you also want to keep it from not getting hot enough.
A friend of mine had a Ducati Paso 750 he rode year round. In the winter he fitted foam that he cut to size into the oil cooler air passageways. That kept the coolers from over-cooling the oil and allowed the oil temp to get up where it needed to be. That bike had a temp gauge on it from the factory, but not a thermostat for the oil coolers.
Slightly different, but when we raced TZ250s we used to tap over the radiators to get up to temp as they also did not have a thermostat. An engine that does not get up to temp is about as bad as one that gets too hot.

 

[John Warner]

. . . it then quickly dumps back into the sump, it affects the sump oil temp a good bit, I'm sure.
Are you wanting oil temp, or head temps near the valves?

My thoughts too.
Initially, I'd like to know that the Oil is getting to a 'decent' temp (110-140°C).
I'm going to pull the Covers off in the next few days to check for mayo.
I've been riding it fairly regularly recently, in temps ranging from 5-16°C, trips ranging from 10-35miles.

. . . You do want to keep your oil from getting too hot, but you also want to keep it from not getting hot enough . . .

Agreed, but the dual Oil circuits of these Engines make it a bit more complex.
Yes, it's the same Oil going through both circuits, but it's performing different roles in each
Maybe the cooling Oil for the Exhaust Valve area needs to be as cool as possible at all times, hence the Thermostat-less arrangement, and the larger Cooler on the later models?

You'd like to think the Designers/Engineers did plenty of testing before they came up with the final design.

 

[mrcanns]

Just changed the oil on mine this morning after yesterday doing 240 miles, main roads, average speed 57mph, oil mayo in both covers I think the problem is not so much oil temp but the cold spot on the front of the valve covers causing the condensation just my impression I'm over worrying about it

 

[canuck1969]

Just changed the oil on mine this morning after yesterday doing 240 miles, main roads, average speed 57mph, oil mayo in both covers I think the problem is not so much oil temp but the cold spot on the front of the valve covers causing the condensation just my impression I'm over worrying about it

Just ride....

This is going to be another one of those things that people worry about for no founded reason. Sometimes too much information is a bad thing. If you want to put temperature probes to see the oil temp knock yourself out but you are probably worrying about nothing.

Both my Vstrom and KLR which are liquid cooled do the same thing. Do short trips and you get mayo in the site glass. Why, because the glass is the coldest part and will condense out water and form a mayo. Just about every liquid cooled bike will do it. Will the bike implode....nope.......

The fact that there is mayo at the top of the valve cover is not a bad thing. Mayo on the tappets or rockers would be a bad thing but the temperatures are never cold enough for that to happen. Only reason it does it on the valve cover is because it is exposed. Think of it as a water separator for your engine. Better there than in your engine (I know...a bit of a stretch).

 

[John Warner]

. . . Both my Vstrom and KLR which are liquid cooled do the same thing. Do short trips and you get mayo in the site glass. Why, because the glass is the coldest part and will condense out water and form a mayo. Just about every liquid cooled bike will do it . . .

No argument there Canuck, but we're not talking about a liquid-cooled Japanese thrash-and-forget Engine.
We're talking about an Engine that has had many Cam/Tappet failures, possibly linked to the colder-climate-short-trip-oil-emulsification scenario.
An air (and Oil) cooled Engine will normally run a bit hotter than an equivalent LC version.
Maybe MG 'over-engineered' the Oil System, with it's separately cooled circuit for cooling the Heads.
If there's a chance of the 'mayo' getting washed into other areas of the engine, which I believe it definitely will, then I'll do what I can to make sure it doesn't form in the first place.

 

[GuzziMoto]

"You'd like to think the Designers/Engineers did plenty of testing before they came up with the final design."
Are you talking about Moto Guzzi? Good luck on that one.
Mayo in your oil is not just about condensation. In order to form the "mayo" the condensation has to get mixed into the oil (try adding a few drops of water to a small amount of oil, you will see nothing happens unless you mix them up vigorously). When that happens the resulting mixture does not lubricate as well. Seeing mayo in your sump or oil tank is one thing, seeing it in your valve train area is another. If I had mayo like that in my valve train area I would do something about it. But my motorcycles do not have mayo in them. The main thing you can do about it is increase the temp the oil runs at. If your oil gets hot enough the water will boil off. Whether you change your riding habits, fit a thermostat to your oil cooler, or take manual steps to block off the cooler from over-cooling, if you have mayo like that you need to do something.
People have had lots of issues with the 8 valve Guzzi motor running flat tappets and many have put that down to being flat tappets. That is stupid, flat tappets have been around for ages and work. Something else was going on and some have suggested it may have something to do with the oil forming mayo in the valve train area. I do not know that to be 100% the case, but it does make sense. And If one of my motorcycles had an issue with mayo forming I would do something about it, 8 valve Guzzi or not.

 

[John Warner]

. . . flat tappets have been around for ages and work . . .

Yes, but as you mentioned, we are talking about Moto Guzzi here.
Maybe the DLC wasn't up to scratch (pun intended), maybe the Cam Lobes and/or tappets are under-sized for the loading on them, who knows?

I have the lower 50% of my Cooler covered at the moment, but as I've mentioned, maybe that's not the best option.
I'm thinking now that the Oil through that circuit needs to be as cool as possible to do it's job, and that I (and others that ride in cold, damp Climates)) need to find some other way to keep the Oil up to temp.

The other question is, how's the water getting in, can only be moist Air being drawn in through the Breather as the Engine's cooling down, surely?
Where is the breather outlet?

 

[john zibell]

I'm thinking now that the Oil through that circuit needs to be as cool as possible to do it's job, and that I (and others that ride in cold, damp Climates)) need to find some other way to keep the Oil up to temp.

What other method is there. Not uncommon to add covers to radiators for diesel trucks either. Considering the difference in temperatures between hot oil and the valve area, the oil will still cool the valve area. It works in summer, so keeping the oil temperature up in winter is also a good thing.


BTW, this may issue is common here in the South East US as well. We have high humidity year round. The may would appear in the 2 valve bikes I would service for folks. Once the weather warmed up, no Mayo. I think you guys are making too much of this. Yes teh flat tappets in the 4 valve engines have issues, but I don't think the mayo is the culprit.

 

[GuzziMoto]

Yes, but as you mentioned, we are talking about Moto Guzzi here.
Maybe the DLC wasn't up to scratch (pun intended), maybe the Cam Lobes and/or tappets are under-sized for the loading on them, who knows?

I have the lower 50% of my Cooler covered at the moment, but as I've mentioned, maybe that's not the best option.
I'm thinking now that the Oil through that circuit needs to be as cool as possible to do it's job, and that I (and others that ride in cold, damp Climates)) need to find some other way to keep the Oil up to temp.

The other question is, how's the water getting in, can only be moist Air being drawn in through the Breather as the Engine's cooling down, surely?
Where is the breather outlet?

Flat tappets do not need a DLC coating to work. They do need proper hardening, and when the first failures occurred that seemed to be the focus of attention. That turned out not to be the main issue.
The motor needs to breath. If there is humidity in the air, you can't stop it from getting into the motor.
covering up part or all of the oil cooler to keep from over-cooling the oil will simply raise the oil temp to normal levels. The exhaust valve or any other part of the motor should have no issue because of this as it did not have an issue with the oil temp during warmer months. And if you add a thermostat it would actually open and close to maintain proper temp. The older Guzzi big blocks like the 2 valve Griso have a thermostat as I recall. I would guess adding one would be the best solution, but since I don't have an 8 valve motor I am not concerned. However, given the propensity of the 8 valve motor to eat its valve train with no sound explanation (blaming the flat tappets is not a sound explanation), if I had an 8 valve motor I would either be blocking the oil cooler or adding a stat and a temp gauge. But that is just my opinion.

 

[mrcanns]

Canuck, by I'm over worrying about it I mean I've finished worrying about it.

 

[canuck1969]

I know...I wasn't clear in my response to your post.....I was just re-enforcing your stance.........If I worried about every little noise or weird occurrence I would have dumped the bike a long time ago. Just another regular day with a Guzzi.