Premium or regular gasoline?

[1Danedaddy]

All grade gasoline motor fuels are required by law to have a specified minimum of detergent additives. This is what the overwhelming majority of refiners add; the minimum specified amounts.

My friend the retired petroleum chemical engineer, told me that almost without exception, the additive package used on the various grades refined by a particular company, is virtually the same. From the research I have done, I have found this to be the case.

Some of the major companies, use “fuzzy math” like I said earlier. If regular unleaded contains 5ppm of an additive and premium contains 10ppm, it does in fact have double the amount but that extra does absolutely nothing extra really.

The term “premium “ is marketing smoke and mirrors.

The bottom line here is to use the fuel that you feel most comfortable with.

I am advocating nothing but that. I just like information and wanted to share what has been shared with me.

Whatever fuel you select, just be sure you are not experiencing detonation as that will destroy an engine faster than anything.

I worry about detonation because I have a profound hearing loss from the accident that I had 10 years ago. I wear hearing aids and I'm concerned about the Bluetooth connection with the helmet etc. and with not being able to detect the detonation if it occurs.
My dealer is being very kind and helpful with getting me back in the groove.
I truly do appreciate all the help I can get!

 

[scott_m]

In truth, for most all riders, who ride average distances per season or year, the price difference is not outrageous.

Again it boils down to what you are comfortable with.

The study umtys cites above, actually confirms what I said.

In that article, they cite the advantages of “Top Tier” fuels.

This is a WHO’S WHO of large-scale refineries and their major customers.

The report states:

“Keeping things simple for consumers, when a participating retailer sells Top Tier fuel, all octane grades from regular to premium gasoline and diesel must adhere to the Top Tier standards. So it is not necessary for drivers to upgrade to premium to gain the cleansing benefits.”

This is precisely what my friend taught me. You don’t buy high-test because it’s cleaner or has more “stuff” in it. You buy it because you need resistance to detonation. That is what you are paying for and the rest is almost pure hype.

In the article they give this list:

Top Tier Retailers​

Retailers include 76, Aloha Petroleum, Arco, Beacon, Breakaway, Cenex, Chevron, Citgo, Conoco, Costco, CountryMark, Diamond Shamrock, Express Mart, Exxon, Fast Fuel, GetGo, HFN, Harmons Fuel Stop, Hele, Holiday, Kwik Star, Kwik Trip, Marathon, Meijer, Metro Petro, Mobil, Ohana Fuels, Phillips 66, QT/Quik Trip, Reeders, Road Ranger, Rutter’s, Shamrock, Shell, Simonson, Sinclair, Sunoco, Texaco, Valero, Value America, Wow, and Win Win.

 

[1Danedaddy]

I found an app named "Pure Gas" and it led me to some 93 octane non-ethanol gas. It is priced at $4.379 and I bought 25 gallons of the stuff. I'll try it out to see if I notice any difference with it. I like experimenting.

 

[scott_m]

I found an app named "Pure Gas" and it led me to some 93 octane non-ethanol gas. It is priced at $4.379 and I bought 25 gallons of the stuff. I'll try it out to see if I notice any difference with it. I like experimenting.

I buy this from our local Farmers Co-op fuel depot for my boat and it is what I run through the final 2-3 tanks of my motorcycles and scooters at the end of the riding season, and fill up with for winter storage.

 

[1Danedaddy]

I buy this from our local Farmers Co-op fuel depot for my boat and it is what I run through the final 2-3 tanks of my motorcycles and scooters at the end of the riding season, and fill up with for winter storage.

I also found it at our local Farmer's co-op, and I'll be using it for my lawnmowers too.
Murphy USA sells 87 octane non-ethanol, but the co-op is the only place that I've seen the 93 octane.

 

[moparnut72]

A few years ago I raced outboard boats, small kneel downs. We usually ran pump gas but in championship races alcohol, ethanol or methanol was prohibited in the stock and mod classes. Since ethanol free gas is unobtanium for me I got some 100ll aviation fuel for one of these events. Out on the warmup lap my boat felt a bit dogish I adjusted the high speed jet, sure enough the power was back. I don't remember if I went richer or leaner but I think a timing adjustment would have helped further. Our 2 stroke engines didn't have a lot of compression so I would bet the high octane fuel was more of a detriment than a benefit. Even though premium is specified for some of our Guzzis I run regular in them for around town etc but if I am going to run them harder premium goes in the tank.
kk

 

[DeadEye]

So I’ve wondered / imagined that todays cars / bikes with electronic ignition systems would « adjust » timing to take advantage of the characteristics of better ( higher octane ) fuel and protect the engine from damaging itself With cheap fuel ,pre ignition ?

When I’ve purchased new/custom ECU maps for cars / bikes some specified that they were designed to run with high octane fuel ?
but if you run crap fuel, I expect the car would still run , but retard timing to avoid knock ( pre ignition) ?

could You tune a carburâtes vehicle to take advantage to high octane fuel ?

( Me using my imagination )

 

[moparnut72]

I get pretty perturbed, at least here and California and I expect most other states when the term substandard fuel is used. It is extremely rare to find substandard fuel. I am a retired Sealer of Weights and Measures, one thing we tested was fuel quality. Samples are taken randomly and sent within 24 hours to headquarters in Sacramento. There they are tested for contaminants and octane. They have a single cylinder engine with a movable head which is moved to increase compression until knocking occurs. This will then can be used to calculate the octane level. If the octane is less than advertised a substantial fine is levied to the person or company that was in possession of the fuel. Thus there is a major incentive to not sell inferior fuel. A couple of examples, on gas station had to replace some engines in addition to a big fine. Another had to pay a huge fine because the delivery driver put regular in a premium tank. He had to fight it out with the distributor. A service station chain owner in S. California has Eprom chips installed in his dispensers that short changed his customers but were correct wwhen weights and measures inspectors were there using 5 gallon test measures even undercover. At 5, 10,15 etc gallons the dispensers would be correct, but how many times do you stop exactly at those amounts? Everywhere else they would be way short. An undercover PU with an oddball sized test measure in the covered bed was used to catch the guy. He did prison time. And storage tanks now have water detectors built in. Nothing to mess with. Substandard fuel is extremely rare.
kk

 

[DeadEye]

Thanks Steve,
I was wondering if All the « smarter « systems had to understand what the engine was doing was the knock sensor.

Does having lambda sensor / oxygen sensor make them any smarter , again my basic imagination thinks that based on those readings ( lean / rich ) [complete burn / incomplete burn .] the ECU would use a different map ( list of values) to inject more fuel when lean / less when rich.

Would / does using higher octane fuel that has more controled burn characteristics help the ECU have a better chance of doing a good job of predicting what is going on while … working to constantly get the optimum AIr / Fuel mix

if throttle % = N and Air/fuel mix = low - injector stays open longer More Bang !

 

[DeadEye]

To Moparnut’s comment -
How many refineries are there in the US (again using my imagination ;p ) there are probably not thousands, or even hundreds maybe not even a dozen ?
So a lot of the fuel , we buy is probably coming from the same place, Yes maybe the « Premium » brands have some extra detergents and additives, but I imagine that the base product *should* be pretty close no mater where you buy it ?

 

[scott_m]

Does having lambda sensor / oxygen sensor make them any smarter , again my basic imagination thinks that based on those readings ( lean / rich ) the ECU would use a different map ( list of values) to inject more fuel when lean / less when rich.

Kind of but not completely.

The λ (lambda-sensor) sendor(s) provide feedback to the ECU which can in a very limited fashion, increase or decrease the pulse width (duration) accordingly, in an attempt to optimize fueling air:fuel ratios based upon this post combustion reading.

This is a very limited range of correction and no motorcycle O2 sensor setup, can “compensate” for major fueling and/or exhaust changes. It isn’t that smart.

However, I believe that the O2 λ (lambda-sensor) setup is a very good system and improves the rideability of the motorcycle. YMMV.

 

[scott_m]

To Moparnut’s comment -
How many refineries are there in the US (again using my imagination ;p ) there are probably not thousands, or even hundreds maybe not even a dozen ?
So a lot of the fuel , we buy is probably coming from the same place, Yes maybe the « Premium » brands have some extra detergents and additives, but I imagine that the base product *should* be pretty close no mater where you buy it ?

“As of January 1, 2023, there were 129 operable petroleum refineries in the United States.”

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

www.eia.gov

 

[Raven]

To Moparnut’s comment -
How many refineries are there in the US (again using my imagination ;p ) there are probably not thousands, or even hundreds maybe not even a dozen ?
So a lot of the fuel , we buy is probably coming from the same place, Yes maybe the « Premium » brands have some extra detergents and additives, but I imagine that the base product *should* be pretty close no mater where you buy it ?

I have seen the same delivery tanker fuel up a Shell station and then fill a "discount" station after. Same fuel, different price and retailer.

 

[scott_m]

** A wide-band O2 sensor will indicate the fuel/air ratio over quite a wide range. That is, unlike the normal narrow-band sensor, the signal is not a binary "rich/weak" signal, but an analogue signal indicating how rich or how weak is the mixture. However, they are expensive and tend to be short-lived, which is why they are not widely used except for setting up the ECU maps during development.

GTM’s fueling solution with the PowerCommander, the Autotune 300 [dual λ (lambda-sensors)] and GTM’s Dyno developed, tested and proven custom map, will make your Moto Guzzi come to life like never before, while it utilizes 2 brand new wide-band sensors.

They are extremely reliable.

I have been running this setup on my Stelvio for 10+ years now and it has operated flawlessly all these years. GTM provides bi-annual review of your mapping file at no charge to the purchasers of this system.

If you really truly want to change your Moto Guzzi motorcycle into a world-class smooth and powerful motorcycle, I cannot recommend this setup more. I recently purchased the same setup for my Eldorado 1400. Looking forward to installing it very soon.

 

[scott_m]

If someone knows of a bike with a knock sensor,

BMW for 2 decades now.

Ducati for a decade now.

Piaggio also for about a decade now.

 

[1Danedaddy]

BMW for 2 decades now.

I really appreciate all of the knowledge that's shared in this forum!

 

[1Danedaddy]

BMW for 2 decades now.

Ducati for a decade now.

Piaggio also for about a decade now.

Does the V100 have a knock sensor?

 

[scott_m]

I really appreciate all of the knowledge that's shared in this forum!

Great! Thank you.

Why not click the DONATE button and kick in a little bit towards the operation of the site?

GTM could use a little “love “from all of us!

Especially in case you never noticed that this site is 100% advertising barrage free! Almost every single motor sport site has a ridiculous number of ads that pollute your every move but not here.

GTM pays handsomely for us to enjoy that. I think people should gladly kick in a $20 once a year to help out.

If everybody did, it would be a really nice gesture to help out Todd who has done so much for the Guzzisti of the world for about what a damn hamburger meal costs at a drive thru anymore.

Be kind, be generous, be supportive, be a real Guzzisti!

Donate if you haven’t and remember to toss a few bucks in the kitty annually. We all get so much from this place for FREE!

Thank you very much.

 

[1Danedaddy]

Great! Thank you.

Why not click the DONATE button and kick in a little bit towards the operation of the site?

GTM could use a little “love “from all of us!

Especially in case you never noticed that this site is 100% advertising barrage free! Almost every single motor sport site has a ridiculous number of ads that pollute your every move but not here.

GTM pays handsomely for us to enjoy that. I think people should gladly kick in a $20 once a year to help out.

If everybody did, it would be a really nice gesture to help out Todd who has done so much for the Guzzisti of the world for about what a damn hamburger meal costs at a drive thru anymore.

Be kind, be generous, be supportive, be a real Guzxisti! Donate if you haven’t and remember to toss a few bucks in the kitty annually. We all get so much from this place for FREE!

Thank you very much.

Will do!

 

[GTM®]

but so long as your engine isn't knocking there is no reason to use anything higher.

Steve, thanks for your contributions. Please state your background/education so that we all know who we're dealing with here.
European fuels are superior (and costly compared) to U.S. fuels. Not that your statement isn't true, but careful what you state when not living here. I can promise you that (the rare and expensive non-oxygenated) 100 octane unleaded at the pump here in SoCal, is quite impressive.