Refurbishing my 2007 Norge

[mylovelyhorse]

I have decided to make one thread for all my posts about the work I'm doing on my 2007 Norge, rather than over-populate the forum with a load of disparate threads.


The Norge runs. I've had it running, it was lovely. There was a big red ! on the dash, accompanied by the word 'SERVICE' which concerned me rather but as I got down the road that went out. Thank goodness for that. The engine felt lovely and was a little quieter so I think doing the valves helped. It popped and banged more on closing the throttle, so that might be something to think about later but for now, very pleased. The 30k rear shock bought for £20 to replace the 59k original feels much better just over that short distance - I'm sure it'll feel even better when I've properly set up the static sag.

10 miles later, I got home again to change the various oils. Like my old R1150GS the engine, gearbox and final drive all have their own oils and so I set about changing them, starting at the back.

I got the CARC oil out easily and cleaned up the magnet on the sump plug. There was very little swarf present, which was pleasing. The old oil didn't look too bad but it'd seen better days so I wasn't unhappy to make sure it was done. The manual has torque ratings for almost everything - except the final drive sump and filler plugs (or if it did, I couldn't find 'em). After a bit of thought and checking other values, I did them up to 28Nm like the rating for the gearbox drain plug. A minor niggle was that to get all 380cc in, I had to take the block from under the front wheel so the rear wheel would lift a bit higher. This was annoying because the engine oil was draining and ran faster with the front wheel propped up. Note to self for next time ..

The engine oil didn't, frankly, appear to be the 3.6 litres that should be in there, although the dip-stick had shown the level as good. I suspect there's some left in the sump, which is okay because to properly clean things up, I shall be removing it. The external oil filter sits above the level of the bottom of the sump and so I need to remove the sump to clean it. It's in the manual and everything. I am nervous of exposing the sump but on the other hand I really want it done, I've got the required gaskets and I really do wonder when it was last done.

Which leaves the gearbox. I removed the sump plug and drained the oil. As with the other oils, it looked okay if not the cleanest ever, but then it's done >5k and I don't actually know when it was last done. I have the service book and that says 54,921 miles but exactly what got done, who can say. Anyhow, my problem started when I went to put the sump plug back in. It seems the previous owner, or the people that last serviced it, used some gunk to keep a failing thread sealed. The sump plug goes in but doesn't even begin to tighten up, it just goes round and round and round. Curses.

Some most excellent advice from a good engineer friend led me to order a couple of items from Amazon - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01MSSTE8H/ & https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0001IWTVO/ to tap in an M11 to replace the M10 that I have yet to get back out. I shall leave the old sump plug loosely in until the weekend as I don't want to leave the gearbox sump drain open. I can't say I am looking forward to having to do this, but it's all part of the learning wossname and I've dealt with a lot worse from other bikes.

Next job is the sump cover, extension flange and oil filter. I will want to clean it out and then look at the internal filter to see if that needs doing too (I bet it will).

The Norge is giving me a little grief, but I am really enjoying working on it and I will def. know where it stands on all service points once all this is done. Also I am going to really enjoy riding it too

 

[mylovelyhorse]

Yesterday evening I spent some hours in the garage removing the sump cover from the Norge. I was intending to remove the oil filter too because, well, look at this:



I've never seen a filter rusted up like that before.

Parts: parts-motoguzzi.com/moto-guzzi-motorcycles/1200-MOTO-GUZZI-MOTORCYCLES/NORGE/2007/Norge-IE/ENGINE/Crank-case/400/8/365001922/916

The Norge engine has a sump cover (27) and a sump extension (25) and both appear to have leaking gaskets to the rear of the engine:



- and as both gaskets come in the service kit, I thought I'd give them a change. Plus the sump is lower than the top of the recessed oil filter so tends to collect crud. Cleaning it out is advised and - as the gaskets appear to be toast anyhow it seemed best.

The sump cover has a lot of allen bolts holding it on - 14 x M6x55 and 4 x M6x20. One of the shorter ones, recessed in by the oil filter, had a slightly stripped head and so proved very troublesome to undo. I ended up banging in a 4.5mm allen key and using that to undo it. I'm rather glad it actually came out! The front right M6x55 made horrible creaking noises when I tried to undo it, which worried me a lot. I really didn't fancy snapping it off in the crankcase. It had opened very slightly, so I sprayed in some GT85 several times while I went round and loosened all the others. After applying some heat with a blowtorch the one really reluctant M6x55 came out & off came the sump cover:



I have now cleaned it thoroughly, inside and out.

I decided to take the oil filter off now I could easily get to it. It has 8 flats and I only have a 14 flat oil filter socket so I tried other methods. Obviously it wouldn't turn by hand. It also wouldn't turn with a tool I have with a studded metal strap that tightens round the filter. It also wouldn't turn using a chain and socket that tightens around the filter. Lastly it wouldn't turn using a sturdy screwdriver through the body:



I did notice that the paint had flaked off and some was on the underside of the engine to I shall clean all those fragments off before reassembly.

At this point I decided to call it a night. I am unsure how to get the oil filter off - although I am reassured slightly to learn that this isn't an unusual problem and they can often be a complete swine to get off. The bike is sat in the garage and unless I have a brain-wave (very unlikely) then tonight I'll take an evening off and go down the beach hut with the wife for scrabble and coffee in the sunshine. I will move on the reluctant filter and the sump extension-flange-thing on Thursday evening. If I can figure out how to get it off - the service manual is less than clear.

 

[john zibell]

When I come across a filter stuck that bad, I pull out a tool like this one. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Oil-Filter...m3f0616b9e5:g:sRgAAOSwbsRa6KLk&frcectupt=true Although after punching with a screw driver I'm not sure it would work. BTW, your Norge can use the same oil filter as your BMW R1150GS. As to tapping the hole, I would prefer to have that done at a machine shop. That means gearbox out and on the bench. The hole must be square to the case for the plug to seal. Also I'd use a helicoil or time sert and continue to use the original plug size. I do like the sealing washer with the rubber gasket. In any case, if you decide to do this yourself, liberally coat the tap with grease to trap the chips.

 

[Brian UK]

The 8 flute filter is the older type, so well worth changing.
I had the same problem and used two screwdrivers banged vertically into the filter end as far apart as possible. Then a big wrench across both of them. It came out.

 

[mylovelyhorse]

The 8 flute filter is the older type, so well worth changing

Ha! The replacement from Gutsibits is also 8 flute. Not such a big deal when putting on as it's just hand tight but when getting off.... I shall be having another go tonight.

Next job is removal of the next layer of the sump - and I'm not sure how to do that. More careful manual reading plus (I suspect) some reading-between-the-lines.

 

[john zibell]

The torque spec for the oil filter is 15 Nm. If less it will probably leak. Also having a look at the parts manual may give you some clues for the sump removal. I do know there are screws hidden by the oil filter, but it sound like you already have that part off.

 

[mylovelyhorse]

Tonight’s progress report.

Outer sump being off yesterday but the oil filter unwilling to move, tonight I got a bit heavy with a chain and it came off. It’s utterly horrible and not just from me bunging a screwdriver through it.

I then got the horribly mucky inner sump off - an amazingly few number of screws to remove it. I think I may replace with stainless ones.

The inner fixed mesh filter was very full of what looks an awful lot like oil-soaked paper bits. I think the canister oil filter internally disintegrated some while ago - at least partly. Thank goodness for a parts washer - after 15 minutes in there, it came out very clean. I’ll need a new o-ring but that’s no biggie.



The inner sump was horribly mucky so I’ve given that a very good clean too. I don’t have an Allen key large enough to undo the cap over the thermostatic oil valve, which is a pity as I’d quite like to give that a clean too. Given the muck in the filter, it’s the least I can do.

Question: does anyone know the size of the Allen key needed to go into the cap over the thermostatic oil valve?



Next stop, tools and parts. After my tea

 

[mylovelyhorse]

I rubbed some of the residue on the internal mesh filter between my fingers and there were no sharp edges in there. I didn’t half get a fair amount out and then I thought “sod it” and bunged it in the parts washer. 10 mins later it was lovely and clean but the water in the parts washer was ‘orrible.

The inner sump contains moving parts - a thermostatic oil valve. I want to take it out to see if it has any gunk in there but even the washers: fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/view/976636 are unavailable from Fowler’s so I think I’ll have to trust they’re gunk free and working.

I cleaned up the inner sump too - it really needed it but has come out looking good:



I might coat it and the inside of the outer sump with a little oil tomorrow, just to help keep any corrosion at bay. It might be a few days before I put this back into place.

There was a little bit of metal hanging down under the sump and I couldn’t for a moment figure out what it was. I’ve never seen a dipstick from the inside before

I am waiting for a set of stainless steel allen bolts to turn up and then I’ll start putting it all back together. Next actual bit of work to do will be to clean up mating faces so that gaskets will go cleanly into place. I don’t think the manual specifies any form of grease or compound on the gaskets. I used a non-setting flange compound on the rocker covers but I’m not sure if anything should be used on the inner and outer sump gaskets. What say the panel?

 

[john zibell]

Personally I like an anaerobic sealant in there. I don't want to have to go back in again if it leaks. I use very little in an extremely thin coat, just enough to change the color of the gasket. see https://www.permatex.com/products/g...e-sealants/permatex-anaerobic-flange-sealant/

 

[mylovelyhorse]

Personally I like an anaerobic sealant in there. I don't want to have to go back in again if it leaks. I use very little in an extremely thin coat, just enough to change the color of the gasket. see https://www.permatex.com/products/g...e-sealants/permatex-anaerobic-flange-sealant/

Thanks. I can’t easily get that in the UK but I can get Loctite 518 which is also an anaerobic sealant. I’ve ordered a tube. Cheers!

 

[Brian UK]

Rocker covers - usually a smear of grease each side of the gasket, then you can use it again next time you check the valve clearance.

 

[Bill Hagan]

Reading your posts is like reliving history.

And, your patience is quite remarkable. Many lesser souls would already have sold such a cantankerous beast. But, as you also know, these minor but maddening challenges aside, a Norge and similar CARCers are sweeties that reward the determined with great joy.

A couple of comments if I may.

First, a pox on you for using imgur to post your pix. I just spent more than 30 minutes like a lemming going from post to post of insane pix after looking at yours.

Seriously, have seen "oil-soaked paper bits" in my Griso, but, in my case those were from an adhesive label on a bottom-end part that Luigi forgot to remove. Plugged-up screen there and led to replacing some big parts parts, thankfully under warranty.

Certainly BTDT WRT stuck oil-filter. The darn things need to be snugged down to what seems an over-tight state, yet that leads to needing a gorilla to remove it.

OTOH, better than my EV. Earlier Guzzis required dropping the sump to get to the filter!

AS for the 3.6L thing, I discovered by accident that the oil cooler and its lines retain a not insignificant amount of oil. I don't drop that every time by any means, but, given your Norge's condition, you might consider that.

I would also avoid overfilling as the excess leads quickly to going into the airbox, and you now what a PITA messing with that can be.

Curious, too, about your Norge's build date. Can't recall if the dreaded oil-pump fracture has arisen in your threads or your searches, and, besides, suspect, given your mileage, that is not an issue. Still, curious, as a few "early" first-gen Norges suffered catastrophic failures. There, now, you needed that, didn't you?

Was your used shock that you installed OEM? If so, you must be a slip of a fellow. The shock & spring on early Norges was meant for riders built like jockeys at the Kentucky Derby.

No time to bore you and others with more. In Atlanta just now and closely supervised by my Perfect Pillion & Polish Princess.

Bill

 

[Brian UK]

I still have the evidence of the oil pump issue, with the outer rotor in 3 pieces.
Fortunately I had read of your "small" problem first Bill, so when the oil light stayed on I investigated as soon as possible. It just cost me a new oil pump, not a new engine.
Mine was first registered in July 07, but manufactured according to the date stamped on the headstock, about a year earlier.

In my case I found that the oil pump shaft was a very loose fit on the inner rotor and I'm sure that might have caused the failure. The replacement pump was very tight.

 

[mylovelyhorse]

your patience is quite remarkable. Many lesser souls would already have sold such a cantankerous beast.

I'm enjoying myself too much for that, although lack of availability for certain small parts is rather grating. There's one large washer and one small viton o-ring that appear to be unobtainium, which is currently holding up the entire job.

• 'O-ring 15,08x2,62viton' - https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/view/GU90706151
• 'copper gasket' - https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/view/976636

As the Loctite products I need haven't arrived as yet and I am away Tuesday noon - Friday evening, there's time (I hope) to find these parts somewhere. If i can then I shall let everything turn up in the post and hopefully get things back together next weekend (or at least start doing so).

First, a pox on you for using imgur to post your pix. I just spent more than 30 minutes like a lemming going from post to post of insane pix after looking at yours.

LOL there's more to come too

2 pics of the thermostatic valve assembly - the copper gasket I need to replace (38mm o/d, 32mm i/d) is 2nd from right:



The pressure relief valve before cleaning. That copper gasket i do have & this part is now back in place:

Certainly BTDT WRT stuck oil-filter. The darn things need to be snugged down to what seems an over-tight state, yet that leads to needing a gorilla to remove it.

It says 15Nm torque to install a new one in the manual. Whoever heard of anything more than hand tight?

Curious, too, about your Norge's build date.

First registered in the UK 01 March 2007.

Can't recall if the dreaded oil-pump fracture has arisen in your threads or your searches

LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU

Was your used shock that you installed OEM?

I got the bike with original 2007 shock; I fitter the stronger springed 2008 shock.

Last thing for today - I spent an hour under the engine cleaning up the mating surfaces so here's some pics of the inner workings etc:

Looking up at the crank:



The front of the engine from below:



The rear of the engine:



Lastly - to give you an idea of how much oil has come out of this bike over I don't know how long, here's a picture of the inside of the side stand:



I am really going to miss working on the bike in the coming week but needs (and work) must.

 

[mylovelyhorse]

And so I am back from working away and ready to start re-assembly of the Norge. A large pile of parts has arrived while I've been away... with the exception of one piece. The viton o-ring that goes under the internal oil filter was ordered 19 May, shipped from the Nederlands 23 May and .. well, no idea when it will turn up. Without it, reassembly seems a trifle silly. I briefly considered re-using the old o-ring but I think there's too much of a chance of a problem doing that.

I have got the thermostatic valve & oil pressure valve back in place though, along with oil cooler unions, blow-back pipe union and sump drain plug. All looking good for when I finally can start proper re-assembly:



Next job is to check and possibly replace the rear brake pads & flush through the brake fluid as there's a substantial amount of rear brake lever movement but not-a-lot of actual retardation going on there.

 

[mylovelyhorse]

Rear brake done - new pads, copper grease where required, Wurth brake paste on the sliding pins, bled a lot of air out of the fluid. Quite an easy job, really, which is a pleasant surprise.

 

[mylovelyhorse]

The time is approaching when I will have to do something about the dodgy gearbox sump plug on the Norge. In fact. I need to sort this before I put the sump back on the bike otherwise it’ll get in the way.

I have an oil sump repair kit and a tap wrench bar both as recommended by an Engineer friend (thanks Andy). The thing is, that tap wrench bar is heavy and well over a foot long. As the bike is at the moment, on its centre stand in the garage, I can’t turn the tap wrench far before it wallops against the centre stand. As we know, the Norge is a heavy old bike and I am a little unsure how I will safely and steadily secure it without using the centre stand.

I am uncomfortable using tie downs to strap it to the roof beams (I just don’t think it’s a solid enough solution) and I don’t have a rear stand that would go on the single sided swinging arm. I am reluctant to buy one for what is essentially one use only. Plus I’d still need to strap it to the roof beams to steady it. I really don’t fancy the Norge falling on me.

There’s one other thing - the tap I have is approx 5” long and I don’t think I can get to the sump plug with it as the exhaust is in the way. I can see why the DPO (or someone working for them) bodged it last time. It seems to me that taking the gearbox off is a very very big job. I might be able to take the exhaust off instead, I suppose. Don’t fancy that much either

So, I am unsure how to proceed at the moment. Much thinking needs to be done and any suggestions would be gratefully received.

 

[john zibell]

See if you can find an 8 point socket that will fit the square end of the tap. Then you can drive the tap with a ratchet. Coat the tap with grease to catch the chips. I my opinion, the best way to repair, is to remove the gearbox, strip it so you can take just the gear case to a machine shop to ensure a square on fix of the threads so that a plug will seal. I can understand wanting to do this yourself and saving some time and money, but doing it yourself could result in replacing the gear case down the road if the new hole isn't perfectly square.

 

[mylovelyhorse]

See if you can find an 8 point socket that will fit the square end of the tap.

I have ordered this: https://www.amazon.co.uk//dp/B000TGM7HY/

I my opinion, the best way to repair, is to remove the gearbox, strip it so you can take just the gear case to a machine shop to ensure a square on fix of the threads so that a plug will seal.

I'm afraid that simply isn't an option.

 

[john zibell]

I'm afraid that simply isn't an option.

It is always an option. Actually the safest. If the tap job goes wrong, the answer is a new gear-case.