Stepper motor repaired. Triangle of death gone bye bye.

[scott_m]

Peter, the button works on a principle of short pulses and long pulses. It's fully detailed in the Owners Manual pp. 51-73.

The same method is used for the User Menus as well as the Diagnostic Menus which are used for Service functions. They respond exactly the same to the short and long pulse button actuation. This method is the same on my Stelvio,1200 Sport and Norge.

I've attached the relevant pages from the Owners Manual here.

As John and I have told the gentleman, he is dong something incorrect because the code will clear, and then as John has directly said, it will not reappear until after trying to start the motorcycle.

 

[Moto-Uno]

Thanks for the followup Scott . Peter

 

[KayJay]

Peter, the button works on a principle of short pulses and long pulses. It's fully detailed in the Owners Manual pp. 51-73.

The same method is used for the User Menus as well as the Diagnostic Menus which are used for Service functions. They respond exactly the same to the short and long pulse button actuation. This method is the same on my Stelvio,1200 Sport and Norge.

I've attached the relevant pages from the Owners Manual here.

As John and I have told the gentleman, he is dong something incorrect because the code will clear, and then as John has directly said, it will not reappear until after trying to start the motorcycle.

Thanks Guys but I can't imagine what i could be doing wrong. I'll ask my better half to video what i am doing and maybe that will help.

 

[KayJay]

Hi guys, I couldn't video the sequence of trying to delete the error code because I couldn't get the mode switch and the display visible in the same frame. I had my wife take photos in sequence of me trying to delete the error code. In the 1st pic you can see I've gone to the "delete errors" display. Second picture, I'm pushing the mode button straight in towards the clutch lever and holding it until I got the next display asking if I want to delete the stored errors (see 3rd pic). Fourth picture shows moving the mode switch to the left to highlight the "Yes" box. Fifth picture, I'm pushing the mode button in towards the clutch lever and holding it. The display then reverts back to the same screen I started with (pic #6). I then navigated back to the ECU errors and ECU 62 still has an "X" next to it. The red triangle light remained on throughout the entire procedure. Long story short, entering "Yes" is only bringing me back to the initial delete errors screen. In other words, it has the same effect as choosing the "No" box. Sorry for the sideways photos. Couldn't figure out how to turn them (they're correct orientation on my phone)

 

[Moto-Uno]

Not having done this , but is there a chance it requires a short tap to the mode switch or a double tap ?
Clutching at straws here , but it only takes a second to find out . Peter

 

[KayJay]

Not having done this , but is there a chance it requires a short tap to the mode switch or a double tap ?
Clutching at straws here , but it only takes a second to find out . Peter

I think I tried that but I'll give it another shot. I have cleared codes before and never had a problem. This is something different. Makes no difference if I highlight the yes box or the no box on the conformation screen, either way the display goes back to the previous screen without clearing the code. Going to try talking to a Ducati Specialist who owns a race shop to see if he has a stepper motor laying around for me to try. These guys don't just repair motorcycles but they are big into the moto GP circuit and build Pro moto GP bikes. they will often get brand new stock Ducatis and tear them down to a bare frame and rebuild them into moto GP race bikes. Chances are he has a stepper motor sitting in the shop. When I pull the old stepper out I'll check between the ecu and the stepper connector for any electrical problems in the harness...

Thanks Peter!

 

[scott_m]

I just verified the procedure on all my motorcycles with dashes and software like this.

Once you select the YES or NO, you then hold the Mode Button in for 2 seconds and when it processes the command, it returns you to the previous menu screen.

So if I am reading you correctly here, it would seem that you are indeed doing it correctly but that your motorcycle has something messed up in it. I wonder if the previous owner had been monkeying around with GuzziDiag and somehow screwed it up. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen stuff horribly messed up with that. Otherwise you have a real unusual error situation I've never seen or heard of before.

 

[KayJay]

I just verified the procedure on all my motorcycles with dashes and software like this.

Once you select the YES or NO, you then hold the Mode Button in for 2 seconds and when it processes the command, it returns you to the previous menu screen.

So if I am reading you correctly here, it would seem that you are indeed doing it correctly but that your motorcycle has something messed up in it. I wonder if the previous owner had been monkeying around with GuzziDiag and somehow screwed it up. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen stuff horribly messed up with that. Otherwise you have a real unusual error situation I've never seen or heard of before.

Scott,

I am the original owner and unfortunately I think you are absolutely correct. The last repair shop that worked on the bike missed a simple plug cap issue after performing 11 hrs. of diagnostics to try to determine why I was getting the red triangle of death. (plug cap was damaged when a Guzzi dealership performed rolleration and then wrapped the plug cap with electrical tape) Who knows what they messed up and yes, I now know they were using guzzidiag. I'll pursue the stepper motor issue and hopefully that will clear the code. Seems to me if a circuit is completely open or dead short the ecu may not be able to delete the code.
That said, I know my limitations. If that doesn't solve the problem I will need a qualified Guzzi specialist to put the bike back to it's original condition using supported software. I did find a Ducati/ Magneti Marelli specialist an hour away and they do say they specialize in all Italian makes and models including Moto Guzzi but considering every shop that has worked on the bike (including Guzzi authorized service facilities) has done more to screw things up than to fix them I am still very skeptical.... I'll look into what software they are using.
May be time to bite the bullet and ship the bike to someone who knows what the f- - k they are doing!!! Hopefully I'll get this straightened out someday and we will all learn something. I'll keep everyone posted...

 

[scott_m]

Ok KayJay,

I have done a lot of thinking about your problem because you have been buggered up here badly.

You have given me much more information to work with. Let’s get this sorted out!

Bike was working then one morning, error and Service Triangle.

Let’s assume based upon this info, that it actually is a physical problem as opposed to a GuzziDiag screwed up situation.

Fastest elimination possible:

The Stepper Motor has 4 ECU pins going to it.

Uncover the ECU which if your small tank 2010 is like my 2012, it’s under the front tank side panel on the left.

Disconnect the battery cables completely from the battery, and clip the + & - cables together with a clamp or rubber bands or vice grips. Whatever is handy. Go have a coffee or two and leave this for 1 hour. This will drain the residual charge in the electronics and reset everything to a fresh new “ground state”.

AFTER 1 HOUR, SEPARATE THE + & - cables from each other and make sure neither is touching the frame anywhere before proceeding.

Now look at the wiring diagram. #40, the IDLE MOTOR. This is what we will test with the voltmeter. You speak technical so I will as well.

Go to the ECU cable and disconnect it from the ECU.

Locate the end pins on the cables. You are looking for the cable with the RED wire on pin 3. Pins 1 & 2 are empty with no wire attached.

Find pins 9, 18, 19, 20. They are respectively, PINK, SKY BLUE, YELLOW, PURPLE.

With your volt meter set to CONTINUITY, select 2 points on the engine or frame or one of each, and VERIFY ground CONTINUITY between those two points. This establishes your ground testing location.

Now, read each ECU pin one at a time to this established good ground point you previously identified in the last step.

NONE of the pins should have CONTINUITY to this ground point. If one does, then it is because the wiring loom has been pinched and or abraded to make contact with the frame or chassis somewhere along it’s length from the ECU end to the Stepper Motor end.

However, I suspect that you will have none of those 4 wires with CONTINUITY to ground. I think the error is caused by something different.

If I am correct, put everything back together and get ready to run the engine again.

If I’m wrong, you need to remove the tank and look for where the wiring loom has been abraded between the ECU and the Stepper Motor.

Instead, I think you may have induced a chemical continuity in the Stepper Motor and it’s housing itself by squirting lubricant into it or you may have shorted the windings.

You need a can of good old fashioned GUMOUT carburetor cleaner with all the nasty chemicals in it.

DO NOT BUY THE NEWFANGLED GARBAGE THAT IS ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY!

You need to spray some good 5 second bursts into the inlet like you did before, and get all of that lubricant out of there.

The Stepper requires no lubrication and should be clean and dry in order to function properly.

Some gentle blowing of compressed air into the inlet will assist with this.

See if this works before contemplating sending her someplace for diagnosis and repair.

The important part is finding out about those 4 wires and if one actually has continuity to ground or not.

Please post your results here.

 

[KayJay]

Ok KayJay,

I have done a lot of thinking about your problem because you have been buggered up here badly.

You have given me much more information to work with. Let’s get this sorted out!

Bike was working then one morning, error and Service Triangle.

Let’s assume based upon this info, that it actually is a physical problem as opposed to a GuzziDiag screwed up situation.

Fastest elimination possible:

The Stepper Motor has 4 ECU pins going to in.

Uncover the ECU which if your small tank 2010 is like my 2012, it’s under the front tank side panel on the left.

Disconnect the battery cables completely from the battery, and clip the + & - cables together with a clamp or rubber bands or vice grips. Whatever is handy. Go have a coffee or two and leave this for 1 hour. This will drain the residual charge in the electronics and reset everything to a fresh new “ground state”.

AFTER 1 HOUR, SEPARATE THE + & - cables from each other and make sure neither is touching the frame anywhere before proceeding.

Now look at the wiring diagram. #40, the IDLE MOTOR. This is what we will test with the voltmeter. You speak technical so I will as well.

Go to the ECU cable and disconnect it from the ECU.

Locate the end pins on the cables. You are looking for the cable with the RED wire on pin 3. Pins 1 & 2 are empty with no wire attached.

Find pins 17, 18, 19, 20. They are respectively, SKY BLUE, YELLOW, PURPLE, GREY.

With your volt meter set to CONTINUITY, select 2 points on the engine or frame or one of each, and VERIFY ground CONTINUITY between those two points. This establishes your ground testing location.

Now, read each ECU pin one at a time to this established good ground point you previously identified in the last step.

NONE of the pins should have CONTINUITY to this ground point. If one does, then it is because the wiring loom has been pinched and or abraded to make contact with the frame or chassis somewhere along it’s length from the ECU end to the Stepper Motor end.

However, I suspect that you will have none of those 4 wires with CONTINUITY to ground. I think the error is caused by something different.

If I am correct, put everything back together and get ready to run the engine again.

If I’m wrong, you need to remove the tank and look for where the wiring loom has been abraded between the ECU and the Stepper Motor.

Instead, I think you may have induced a chemical continuity in the Stepper Motor and it’s housing itself by squirting lubricant into it or you may have shorted the windings.

You need a can of good old fashioned GUMOUT carburetor cleaner with all the nasty chemicals in it.

DO NOT BUY THE NEWFANGLED GARBAGE THAT IS ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY!

You need to spray some good 5 second bursts into the inlet like you did before, and get all of that lubricant out of there.

The Stepper requires no lubrication and should be clean and dry in order to function properly.

Some gentle blowing of compressed air into the inlet will assist with this.

See if this works before contemplating sending her someplace for diagnosis and repair.

The important part is finding out about those 4 wires and if one actually has continuity to ground or not.

Please post your results here.

Wow!
I got something right! I was planning to do just what you suggest as far as the electrical connections with the exception of draining the residual voltage. I may not have a chance to do much before the weekend as Mom and Dad need me. They are both in their 90's and not doing well. My wife, dogs and the Guzzi are what keeps me sane... As soon as I get a chance I'll check for continuity and post the results here.

 

[KayJay]

Wow!
I got something right! I was planning to do just what you suggest as far as the electrical connections with the exception of draining the residual voltage. I may not have a chance to do much before the weekend as Mom and Dad need me. They are both in their 90's and not doing well. My wife, dogs and the Guzzi are what keeps me sane... As soon as I get a chance I'll check for continuity and post the results here.

Well Scott,
I just finished checking the 4 stepper pins. Double checked the pin #'s in the service station manual just to confirm the wiring diagram agrees and my old eyes are following the diagram correctly. Pins 9, 17,18 and 19 are the stepper pins. 9 and 17 are listed in the manual as "stepper (+)". 18 and 19 are "stepper (-)". Unfortunately pins 9 and 19 are shorted to ground. The harness could have been damaged when the shop pulled the tank to replace the oil pressure switch. After riding home from the shop I found the battery box drain hose and the fuel overflow, yes, the FUEL overflow hose burnt to a crisp as they had been left up against the exhaust so it seems highly possible they screwed up the wiring as well. I checked and double checked. 9 and 19 are shorted to ground. Looks like the tank is coming off, PITA on the small tank Stelvio.

So, thanks to your expert advice it looks like I've found the problem. It will be interesting to see where the short is.

Thanks so much for your help Scott. It was a pleasure talking to you and I'll keep you posted. One minor issue I ran into was the blue weather seal on the ecu connector feel apart when I pulled the connector off, Looks like they are impossible to find on line. Any suggestions? Oh, and 1 casualty... I stabbed myself with my wife's sewing needle!!

 

[scott_m]

See, my eyes just are not like they used to be either. I had to re-read the wiring diagram on my 27” monitor as opposed to my damn iPhone!

You are right, pin 9,17,18,19 are correct.

I updated my post. Thank You Very Much!

 

[Moto-Uno]

Holy Crap Scott , that ,without a doubt was the absolute best ( I don't use those words often )
diagnostic procedure I've read here Ever ! (For reference I instructed motorcycle mechanics in
a northern college decades ago) . Peter
How's about a round of applause for that posting .

 

[KayJay]

Holy Crap Scott , that ,without a doubt was the absolute best ( I don't use those words often )
diagnostic procedure I've read here Ever ! (For reference I instructed motorcycle mechanics in
a northern college decades ago) . Peter
How's about a round of applause for that posting .

Indeed!
Wish The so called mechanics in my area would take some lessons from Scott!

 

[scott_m]

Thank you so very much gentlemen. That is so kind of you both.

I'm hopeful we can get you sorted out KayJay.

In truth, I actually do like helping people but I do not suffer the foolish or lazy very well here and I have been known to have a rather sharp and pointed way about me and I tend to polarize people. I call it being "blunt", so you really don't know how much I do appreciate your kinds words from both of you.

Thank you again.

I'm going to double check on my 2012 Stelvio on Sunday, to make double sure that what I told you checks out on my bike as well. It should be exactly the same.

Also, KayJay, like I told you in the private chat, I have that used steeper motor coming that I purchased, and when I get it and check it out, if you do in fact need one, you can buy that one from me for what I paid for it which was a fraction of a new or even a used one.

 

[KayJay]

Thank you so very much gentlemen. That is so kind of you both.

I'm hopeful we can get you sorted out KayJay.

In truth, I actually do like helping people but I do not suffer the foolish or lazy very well here and I have been known to have a rather sharp and pointed way about me and I tend to polarize people. I call it being "blunt", so you really don't know how much I do appreciate your kinds words from both of you.I did

Thank you again.

I'm going to double check on my 2012 Stelvio on Sunday, to make double sure that what I told you checks out on my bike as well. It should be exactly the same.

Also, KayJay, like I told you in the private chat, I have that used steeper motor coming that I purchased, and when I get it and check it out, if you do in fact need one, you can buy that one from me for what I paid for it which was a fraction of a new or even a used one.

Great!
It just dawned on me that I didn't disconnect the stepper plug when I checked the ecu pins so i suppose the short could be in the windings inside the stepper. I'll check again when I have the stepper un plugged. Once the tank is off I,ll have better access to it...
If that is the case and further cleaning doesn't do the trick, I'll need yours. I think I'll order a stepper driver as well so I can bench test the thing. They aren't expensive and I'm always looking for new tools...

 

[Adam Davis]

I just verified the procedure on all my motorcycles with dashes and software like this.

Once you select the YES or NO, you then hold the Mode Button in for 2 seconds and when it processes the command, it returns you to the previous menu screen.

So if I am reading you correctly here, it would seem that you are indeed doing it correctly but that your motorcycle has something messed up in it. I wonder if the previous owner had been monkeying around with GuzziDiag and somehow screwed it up. Wouldn't be the first time I've seen stuff horribly messed up with that. Otherwise you have a real unusual error situation I've never seen or heard of before.

Well Scott,
I just finished checking the 4 stepper pins. Double checked the pin #'s in the service station manual just to confirm the wiring diagram agrees and my old eyes are following the diagram correctly. Pins 9, 17,18 and 19 are the stepper pins. 9 and 17 are listed in the manual as "stepper (+)". 18 and 19 are "stepper (-)". Unfortunately pins 9 and 19 are shorted to ground. The harness could have been damaged when the shop pulled the tank to replace the oil pressure switch. After riding home from the shop I found the battery box drain hose and the fuel overflow, yes, the FUEL overflow hose burnt to a crisp as they had been left up against the exhaust so it seems highly possible they screwed up the wiring as well. I checked and double checked. 9 and 19 are shorted to ground. Looks like the tank is coming off, PITA on the small tank Stelvio.

So, thanks to your expert advice it looks like I've found the problem. It will be interesting to see where the short is.

Thanks so much for your help Scott. It was a pleasure talking to you and I'll keep you posted. One minor issue I ran into was the blue weather seal on the ecu connector feel apart when I pulled the connector off, Looks like they are impossible to find on line. Any suggestions? Oh, and 1 casualty... I stabbed myself with my wife's sewing needle!!

KayJay,

Here are photos I messaged you about. Hope it helps.

Adam

 

[scott_m]

KayJay,

Here are photos I messaged you about. Hope it helps.

Adam

Hey Adam!

That looks like a new seal? Where did you find that please?

 

[scott_m]

Great!
It just dawned on me that I didn't disconnect the stepper plug when I checked the ecu pins so i suppose the short could be in the windings inside the stepper. I'll check again when I have the stepper un plugged. Once the tank is off I,ll have better access to it...
If that is the case and further cleaning doesn't do the trick, I'll need yours. I think I'll order a stepper driver as well so I can bench test the thing. They aren't expensive and I'm always looking for new tools...

I was going to write you about that in the morning but you beat me too it.

Yes, you need to test the wiring loom DISCONNECTED at both ends, the ECU side and the Stepper Motor side. Then, if any of those pins read continuity to the frame (ground), then you have an actual physical short.

However, I still think you have a chemical short within the steeper, virtually identical to the Original Poster (Adam Davis) who experienced the exact same condition you are experiencing, and was able to make it resolve by thoroughly chemically cleaning the Steeper Motor.

 

[Adam Davis]

Hey Adam!

That looks like a new seal? Where did you find that please?

Scott,

Bike Developments Inc. UK I had to buy the 2 harness adapters to get the gaskets. No one sells the gaskets only. I looked everywhere on this earth. Oh yeh and the two adapters with rubber gaskets cost me $253.53US including shipping. Good times....