Carked CARC

[burnie]

Sorry to hear about your CARC Mike
I bought one of the first Breva 1100's in Aus December 05 and the Carc seal was replaced under warranty at 1000km service after the mechanic found metal in oil.Seal replaced no problem but about 1000km later same problem but this time oil leaking onto rear rim and tyre.Back to dealer and Guzzi replaced the CARC comletely.Bike now has 24000km and I still get a little oil on CARc housing but I'm pretty certain it is only weeping from gasket.I still wonder whether the bearing will fail again and I have a habit of checking the rear tyre and rim after every longish ride.The bike has been superb otherwise and would like to keep longterm.Does anyone have any idea how much the repair bill would be for another CARC replacement if failure was to reoccur.

 

[Penis Rotor]

burnie wrote:

Sorry to hear about your CARC Mike
I bought one of the first Breva 1100's in Aus December 05 and the Carc seal was replaced under warranty at 1000km service after the mechanic found metal in oil.Seal replaced no problem but about 1000km later same problem but this time oil leaking onto rear rim and tyre.Back to dealer and Guzzi replaced the CARC comletely.Bike now has 24000km and I still get a little oil on CARc housing but I'm pretty certain it is only weeping from gasket.I still wonder whether the bearing will fail again and I have a habit of checking the rear tyre and rim after every longish ride.The bike has been superb otherwise and would like to keep longterm.Does anyone have any idea how much the repair bill would be for another CARC replacement if failure was to reoccur.

While the bearing is the same as the failure prone ones on BMW's the CARC's once they have a bearing produced by people who don't have bones through their noses and measure their riches bt the number of swine they posess seem to be fairly bulletproof. I've done well over 50,000kms on 2 CARCs now and apart from my first one having a bearing failure because although it was out of the recall range it had a bad one in I have had zero problems.

On customers bikes I've seen one other with the bad bearing outside the recall range and one that had a failed pinion seal. The actual 'Business bit' inside the housing looks like the turret operating mechanism for a large battletank! this is one majorly strong component! As long as the oil changes are looked after it should last pretty much forever.

One note about the above statement. There are NO gaskets in a CARC. The two halves of the casing are sealed together with a sealant which should be of the semi-hardening variety. I use Threebond 1211 but Hondabond or Yamabond will do just as well if you can't find Threebond. The front of the CARC and the top where the torque arm comes out are sealed by boots with clamps holding them in place. As I mentioned before the 'Single Use' clamps used by Guzzi can easily and effectively be replaced with CV boot clamps as used on many small, front wheel drive cars. I also add a small smear of Threebond about the boot sealing surfaces.

If you are still getting drips check around the clips that hold the brakeline under the swingarm and CARC. It seems that the drillings for the clips may of been deliberately allowed to go through into the swingarm to allow the egress of oil in the event of the pinion seal going so the owner knows something is wrong. Note also that the pinion seal replacement requires a special peg spanner to undo the seal holder. Try doing it without this, (Or a home made alternative but it'll need to be accurately made.) and you'll almost certainly damage the front of the CARC 'Bridge' that holds the pinion. Just so you know........

Pete

PS. You really don't want to know how much a replacement CARC will cost you but I'll tell you anyway... $5962.71 AU +GST (10%) and freight! That's list and I can tell you that as a supplier I'd be making a lot less mark up on that than I do on some bits, so look after it!!!!!

 

[burnie]

Thanks for the valuable info Pete.It seems from what you say that I am unlikely to have to replace the whole CARC unit for the effective life of the bike unless abused or oil changes are neglected.Do you recommend more frequent changes than the manual or is that aok.I ride 2 up a lot and does this put much extra load or pressure on the internals of the back end.Once again thanks.

 

[Penis Rotor]

burnie wrote:

Thanks for the valuable info Pete.It seems from what you say that I am unlikely to have to replace the whole CARC unit for the effective life of the bike unless abused or oil changes are neglected.Do you recommend more frequent changes than the manual or is that aok.I ride 2 up a lot and does this put much extra load or pressure on the internals of the back end.Once again thanks.

I don't care how 'good' modern oils are what will kill things like gearbox bearings are particulate matter and like it or not bits will get knocked off in a gearbox.

Interestingly Guzzi now use sealed bearings mostly in the gearbox, presumablybecause of the loadings the CARC bearings are still 'Washed'.

I tell my customers they can leave the gearbox and CARC oils for 10,000Km. But they probably aren't seeing the bike as a 'Lifetine' prospect.

I change my engine oil every 5,000Km, my filter everery other oil change and the CARC at the same time because it works hard, the oil quantity is small, the above mentioned particulate contamination, the slightly suspect nature of the carrier bearing and because it's cheap and I can!

The gearbox? It never goes to 10,000 but I tend to work on my bikes when I'm either not busy or I want to but they never get close to the 'Recommended' change interval.

Am I being paranoid? Maybe. But as i say. I see my bikes as a 'Lifetime' investment. I'll be handing 'em on to m y kids as part of their inheritance. It's one of the things that drove me to learn about mecanics in the first place. whether it has any relevance to anybody else in this 'Throw Away' age is another matter....

Pete

 

[RJVB]

> I tell my customers they can leave the gearbox and CARC oils for 10,000Km. But they probably aren't seeing the bike as a 'Lifetine' prospect.

Is it me, or does that sound a little bit like you're making the decision for them?

 

[Penis Rotor]

RJVB wrote:

> I tell my customers they can leave the gearbox and CARC oils for 10,000Km. But they probably aren't seeing the bike as a 'Lifetine' prospect.

Is it me, or does that sound a little bit like you're making the decision for them?

How many people do you know who own

1 x heavily modified '79.

2 x Fairly stock and heavily modified 1980

1 x stock-ish '89

1 x 2002, slightly modified

1 x 2008, slightly modified

and have no intention of selling any of 'em in a hurry?

I've seen too many people over the years who claim their *new* bike, even if it isn't *new* is their pride and joy and they'll never sell it. what happens? Three years later I meet 'em and their on something else.

So what's my choice? Tell them what I think is ideal and what I do, even though it outside the factory's service regieme and be accused of over-servicing to 'Rip Them Off'? Or just follow the schedule.

Not all of my bikes are currently running and registered but within a week I could have any one of them ready to ride to Perth. I simply do't have the time and/or inclination at the moment.

So do I make decisions for my customers? No. they get the same info they get here, I just tell them that I probably over-service mine. If they want to follow that? that's fine. If not. By the book keeps their warranty and they will probably never do enough Kms for much to go wrong anyway.

I can't fucking win can I?

Pete

 

[Brian UK]

Pete, I came to the conclusion long ago, that none of us can win.

 

[RJVB]

Hey Pete, I was just asking, basically because one reason I bought a Guzzi is that I understood I could be riding it for at least 15 years. It's always hard to tell when an intention to sell comes along, isn't it...

Anyway, if you tell them you yourself "probably over-service" yours, then let's forget I ever asked? :S I thought of asking whether you told them such a thing (or gave them such a choice), but didn't think it very appropriate...

 

[MurphyPeoples]

I love reading Pete's posts. It's like Peter Egan writings without any political correctness!
Tell it like it is Pete! I always learn something from the guy.
Murphy

 

[GrahamNZ]

Having seen inside a CARC, suffered a leaking case joint, suffered a bearing failure in a recall exchange unit, suffered a CARC breather tower failure and read of all the failures reported here, I'm far from confident in the bloody thing. The bellows and oilseal setup at the front doesn't inspire confidence either. At least it's easy to remove from the bike, even if then it's almost too heavy for me to lift.

Like some others, I frequently check the rear wheel rim for oil leakage when stopping to refuel and when arriving home. That shouldn't need to be the case with a modern bike. I also check the oil level frequently even when no leakage is evident in case oil is being lost forward into the swinging arm.

Frankly I have more confidence in the belt drive on my Buell to bring me home without incident Well now that I've improved the guarding to keep stones out I do.

It amazes me that Guzzi should produce such a hunk of junk when everyone else seems to be able to make reliable final drive units. It also amazes me that Guzzi persists with the woefully inadequate driveshaft torsional shock absorber which is responsible for the clonky initial takeup and noisy upward changes from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to third.

Despite all that I still love the bike though. Like a parent loves even an errant child.

 

[guzzibob]

GrahamNZ wrote:

everyone else seems to be able to make reliable final drive units. It also amazes me that Guzzi persists with the woefully inadequate driveshaft torsional shock absorber which is responsible for the clonky initial takeup and noisy upward changes from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to third.

Apparantly you are unaware of the repeated failures of BMW rear drive units that BMW tries to deny, & has no clue as to the cause. And if you had one of the newer non-Polish made bearings fail, than that would be the first that i am aware of-and have been looking for hard. See Pete's post second from the top backing me up on that. As for the other stuff above-I have no idea what you are talking about, unless you mean the completely trivial noises from sloppy shifting. Frankly, I think the new gearbox is fabulous, as does Motorcycle Consumer News-you know, the magazine with no ads forcing them to suck up to the advertisers?

 

[Roblatt]

Graham

I've had the gear shifting noises and clunks you refer to. Not any more though, ever. For first gear pull the clutch in and count to 3 before slipping into first - you won't even notice it's gone in, changing up I let the engine build up the revs 'till for the given throttle it doesn't accelerate any more (ie sync engine to gearbox) and again the the changes are silky smooth.

Robert

 

[GrahamNZ]

Robert

Thanks for the advice. It's not slipping from neutral into 1st that I meant and I'm aware of how to avoid a clunk then. And I can get silent upward changes every time if I'm accerating and change quickly. Yes, it's when not concentrating that the clonking occurs, not because of any deficiency in the gearbox, which is as slick as they come and never finds a false neutral, it's the driveline shock absorber which is the problem. I'll try your method, which I believe will work, but why should I have to concentrate so much just to achieve a silent change? What I'm convinced is the problem is that until the rotational speed is fast enough, the shock absorber releases the compressive energy too fast. That's why keeping it loaded and changing fast beats the unloading. The clonky initial take up I referred to occurs when you are already in first gear, say in stop-start traffic, and you are constantly declutching and then engaging again. In that situation the shock absorber might just as well be solid steel. The problem is that the shock absorber needs progressive takeup resistance, which being rubber could be expected, but maybe the Shore A rating of the rubber is too high.

But. My Buell's transmission has none of those problems. It has a few others like an unavoidable clunk when going from neutral to 1st and changes are slow compared with the Guzzi, but 99% of the time the changes are fluidly smooth and silent.

Bob

As said above I agree that the Guzzi gearbox is a beauty. As for BMW reliability, I don't follow what that outfit does. One BMW was enough for me although I covered 65,000km on my 1990 R100GS without any final drive issues. Other problems though, including the gearbox losing oil into the swinging arm.

I may be a sloppy shifter but not from lack of experience. Riding for 50 years now and ridden far more bikes than I can possibly remember, so I wonder why I haven't learnt to make constantly silent changes on my Guzzi? After all I've sat on it for 40,000km now. Maybe I'm becoming senile, but why is it only the Guzzi which makes me think that?

 

[RJVB]

> Maybe I'm becoming senile, but why is it only the Guzzi which makes me think that?

Would a soul-less, characterless thing make you think that? (ok, except maybe for just about any iteration of Microsoft's OS, but fortunately we know that holds for about everyone, regardless of age :silly

 

[Brian UK]

Graham, the additional metalastic bush in the torque arm does reduce that gearchange clonk, though it doesn't remove it completely.

Quite honestly, I don't think the rubber in the drive shaft has any effect at all.

 

[guzzibob]

Graham, I guess whatever clonkiness there may or may not be in shifting doesn't bother me any more than the popping on overrun, esp going downhill-that is to say, not at all. But then I was never bothered by the huge clanks & clunks coming out of the old 5-speed boxes, because funtionally they were meaningless-unlike the false neutrals ever present in an incorrectly shimmed 5-speed, fortunately totally absent on the 6-speeds. I guess I don't much hear the noises you are referring to cause I don't care about them. Maybe I'll give a closer listen next time I'm on it. Still won't care about them though, as long as it has no effect on the ride.

I bring up the BMW rear end problems-far greater and apparantly design related rather than the apparantly supplier specific Guzzi Carc issues cause you stated-that "everyone else" has "reliable" rear ends. From other forums where I see posts from people with both Guzzi & BMW backgrounds I know that this is most assuredly not the case. To the tune of 6 BMW rear end failures in the Iron Butte run-including TWO for one poor guy.

 

[GrahamNZ]

Bob
OK, I'm justifyably chastised for saying that everyone else can make a trouble-free final drive unit. I apologise for not keeping abreast of recent BMW inadequacies.

Robert
Today I may get to try your gearchanging technique.

Brian
I have asked the local dealer to get me one of those bushes but so far no bush. Maybe I'll be able to source a generic one to the specs you provided me with. I agree that the driveshaft shock absorber might just as well not exist. Strangely, Buells have no driveline shock absorber other than any stretch the belt allows, yet gearchanging is absolutely silent 99% of the time. Maybe it's the heavy flywheel effect at work.

RJVB
Anyone who rides a Buell shouldn't be criticised for not wanting character. Buells have an excess of character!

 

[GrahamNZ]

Robert

Took both bikes around my usual test circuit today. Your technique to achieve quieter changes from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd does work for me too, so thanks for that. Better than being lazy, but no better than changing quickly while accelerating. Got to say though that the Buell is still easier to achieve clean, silent changes in all situations and all riding modes.

 

[Brian UK]

To get back on topic, have you made any progress Mike?

In one way you are unlucky that the bike is out of warranty, in another you are at least in control of the situation yourself, and not relying on Guzzi to get their collective fingers out as I am with mine. They keep coming up with every excuse under the sun to avoid doing anything.

As you know, there was a recall on many CARC units. The recall notice (now removed from general view) had the serial numbers of those affected. Can you check whether yours came in that range?
Recalls do not come under the warranty, so there is no date limit.

 

[Mike.C]

Evnin Brian, yes there has been some progress.

Pete contacted JSG (the importer) for me and bent their ear, and I received an email from some bloke I had never heard of calling himslef "the Northern Area Sales Manager" telling me to take it to a local service agent for a look see.

At this stage I am trying to organise a trailer to take it up to them next week.

Then either one of two things will happen, 1) they will check and find that the recall should have been done and wasn't, in which case it will be carried out FOC or 2) they will decide that I have to pay, in which case I will chuck a trantrum, trailer the bike home and do it myself.

Part of the problem is that my "usual" mechanic help is not a Guzzi service agent for reasons that I don't want to go into here (Pete I agree with you 100%!!!!!!!!!!!), and so if they aren't going to do it under recall, I will just make it happen probably with Pete's help.


BTW, If you need a copy of the recall I have it and yes by my reading of it my bike should have been done.