Good point, I know a chap who can do that so I will - once the fork is out - get it round to him. See next post for why that won't be today...
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Refurbishing my 2007 Norge
- Thread startermylovelyhorse
- Start date
Curses. I have the front wheel out and am ready to remove the forks. Top yoke bolt undoes nicely. Bottom yoke not so much. I have doused them (both forks) in vast quantities of GT85, PlusGas and the acetone/ATF mix, both on the heads and in between the yoke parts where it nips up in an attempt not to have to get the blow torch out. Several days of that and I hope to be able to get the yokes undone.
In the meantime, the front wheel has gone back in. Just in case, like.
In the meantime, the front wheel has gone back in. Just in case, like.
Also try a small butane torch on the Allen heads. Heat and let cool. They may then cooperate. I've used that method and usually it works, but no guarantee. A torch like one of these. https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/micro-flame-butane-torches
The next stage in the refurbishment is now underway. I took the seat off & disconnected the battery yesterday, followed by the tank. IIRC I now need to take the air-box off so that I can do the alternator belt - even if not absolutely required I think I will do it anyhow for ease of access to the alternator. Replacing the belt will be next on my list.
I have noticed oil on the back of the engine so it looks like the hose from the blow-by housing down to the sump may be the fault there. I'll try and get that off to see if it can be easily replaced (part not available from Fowlers) or fixed.
The hoses to the oil cooler are manky (rusty, generally dirty & unpleasant looking) at both ends - I'd quite like to replace them but not with new Moto Guzzi hoses as they're quite expensive. I hear that they're bespoke fittings and so the ends might be hard to duplicate - anyone know if that's correct?
This weekend I have a mate joining me for a day to help get the forks off - one by one of course. That gives us an opportunity to get the seized yoke bolts out, by hook or by crook (or indeed by impact driver). We'll then be changing the fork oil and after getting that errant broken off screw out, be putting the things back in.
The exhausts can go back on then, followed by brake bleeding and a run to get the oil warm. Engine oil & filter change after that and then I might just have a rest and a cup of tea!
I have noticed oil on the back of the engine so it looks like the hose from the blow-by housing down to the sump may be the fault there. I'll try and get that off to see if it can be easily replaced (part not available from Fowlers) or fixed.
The hoses to the oil cooler are manky (rusty, generally dirty & unpleasant looking) at both ends - I'd quite like to replace them but not with new Moto Guzzi hoses as they're quite expensive. I hear that they're bespoke fittings and so the ends might be hard to duplicate - anyone know if that's correct?
This weekend I have a mate joining me for a day to help get the forks off - one by one of course. That gives us an opportunity to get the seized yoke bolts out, by hook or by crook (or indeed by impact driver). We'll then be changing the fork oil and after getting that errant broken off screw out, be putting the things back in.
The exhausts can go back on then, followed by brake bleeding and a run to get the oil warm. Engine oil & filter change after that and then I might just have a rest and a cup of tea!
And so this evening I’ve whipped the air box off and lowered the oil cooler and the horns (should it have two?) out of the way. It turns out that the dreaded previous owner has mangled the heads of at least some of the Allen bolts holding the alternator belt cover on. I’ve doused them with PlusGas and will get some replacements before going further with removing the cover. Grrr!
Yesterday I was up at 7am to go to my not-overly-local FedEx depot so I could collect the fork oil I’d ordered & they’d failed to deliver. After that I could get to working on the bike.
The tank had come off earlier in the week, as had the air box. The next activity was to release the oil cooler and take the cover off the alternator belt. Apart from a momentary inspection I left everything else there for later.
An old friend kindly came over and gave up his day to help me work on the bike. Without him, the amount of work that actually got done wouldn’t have been covered off in a month of Sundays.
Between the two of us we loosened the fork caps and then got the forks off (or should that be out?) This wasn’t as easy as it might seem as the top one of the two bottom yoke (triple clamp) pinch bolts on each side had pretty solidly stuck in place. I thought it odd that the top one had seized up on both sides until I looked into the bores with a torch and realised that on both sides the bottom is open & the top closed at the back. Seems a mighty odd design to me. They’d been soaked with PlusGas and GT85 for the last week in an attempt to ease them. After deploying an impact driver, and a bit of a tighten to help break the stiction, all the bolts came out. Both issued some mightily worrying creaks and groans as they started to move, which isn’t good for the nerves, I can tell you.
Next job was to get the old oil out and replace it. What came out was remarkably clean but rather thin. By the look of the old oil, the dreaded previous owner (DPO) must have had it changed fairly recently - which doesn’t actually correspond that well with the seized bolts. They gave the impression of having been in for a long time. My mate suggested that this means the last fork oil change might have been in situ - draining through the retainer bolt at the bottom, then replacement through the fork cap. A cowboy way to do the job, in my opinion, so more than likely that’s the way it was done if the rest of the bike is anything to go by. Mind you, saying that, if I need to change the new (15W) fork oil for something thinner, that’s what I might have to do. Maybe. Not a palatable thought though.
There was a snapped off screw in the right fork leg. It is for retaining the mudguard and had seized into place, probably a very, very long time ago. We spent some time mucking about trying to drill the steel screw out with no luck. This wasted probably a whole hour and really just made a mess of things. Over the road lives another friend, an old-fashioned engineer with skills I can’t begin to dream of and a workshop to match. He’d been out gliding and when he came home I took the fork leg over to him to beg help. He has a mill and after a bit of thinking he clamped the fork leg in place, drilled out the seized screw & tapped the new hole. Can’t ask for more, really, and so very helpful - after all the forks couldn’t really go back on without that issue resolved. Another thousand thanks I owe to a friend.
Next the dreaded steering head bearings. With no load on, they actually felt fine. We then wasted a couple of hours cleaning up & re-greasing the (probably original) ball bearings and refitting them. After much mucking around we realised that there was wear on the bottom of the lower set and so the most horrible of jobs had to begin.
We both hate changing steering head bearings. It’s a difficult job at the best of times - and I don’t just mean the huge level of dismantling required to get the bike ready to do the job. The old ones are always bl00dy awful to get off, the new ones far from easy to get on again. The top outer race was easy to get out with a long drift but it took a lot of work with a Dremel cutting disk to get the lower inner race off. The replacement set were roller bearings from Pyramid Parts. I’ve used their bearings before and found them good. The inner races and the yokes spent over an hour in the freezer while we looked further at the alternator belt.
Turning briefly to this area, a lot of belt debris - thick, grey, dry dust - was found on the inside of the housing. That will be cleaned that off, as will the muck on the insider of the cover. The belt itself looks to be in good order and fairly new. Using the 90o turn method, I’d say it is very slightly looser than might be optimum but there’s no squealing from it when the bike is running and no lack of voltage from the alternator. It’s tempting to leave well alone, especially once I realised the adjuster is an awkward screw up near the headstock and somehow facing a frame bar. Very annoyingly tricky - especially as the service manual just seems to assume you know how to get in there and do it. So for the time being, I decided it was more important to get back to the forks. I’ll get on with the alternator belt, whatever I decide to do, one evening soon. I need to get some new bolts to replace the longer cover retaining ones anyhow.
Out of the freezer came the top outer race. Using the old outer race and a large socket, that was fairly quickly drifted into place. The yokes came out next while my mate used a hot air gun to warm the outer race - not too much, just a bit. It dropped remarkably easily into place on the bottom of the stem, snuggled up nicely to the seal we had remembered to slip on first. A thorough greasing for the needle bearings with the supplied sachet of goo and then it was time to fit the things.
This went reasonably easily until it came time to tighten up the two retaining rings at the top. The service manual appears to suggest, in its horribly translated English, that the lower ring needed to be on at 40Nm. I have no way to measure this and anyhow it seems to be an awful lot. In the end it got done up tight, but not too tight, the locking washer next then the upper ring. It didn’t get the 90o turn the book said as that made everything too tight when rotating the steering head. It got 45o or so then the locking tabs bent into place.
The time had arrived for the forks to go back in. Having cleaned up the threads on the yokes and using new bolts for the upper and lower yokes, with a little bit of aluminium grease, it was easier to get the forks back in than I’d expected. It was still annoyingly difficult to get the things “just so”. The thick rubber anti-vibration pad between half-handlebar and yoke top repeatedly got in the way. It might have been an idea to get new ones in but I hadn’t thought of it and it’s not like I could pop round the corner to a dealers to pick them up. After thinking all was done, my mate noticed that the right fork wasn’t in quite as far as it should be. Curses! A quick loosening, wiggling and tightening up again resolved that.
The fork caps are not yet tightened up and I need to remember to do that soon - if I can work out what the torque value should be from the mangled descriptions in the manual. Anyone happen to know?
Last job on the steering head bearings was to whack the 100Nm onto the retainer cap/bolt (no idea what the proper name is). With that done and the forks in place, the wheel went in quickly enough, the callipers went loosely into place and the time had come to get the bike off its stand to bounce the suspension a bit. The steering head bearings felt great, the new 15w fully synthetic fork oil made the front end much firmer (in a good way) than the old, thinner oil, and nothing fell off the bike. I considered that a success and so the bike went onto the stand again. The front wheel got properly torqued into place and the day’s work pretty much completed. 9pm!
The tank had come off earlier in the week, as had the air box. The next activity was to release the oil cooler and take the cover off the alternator belt. Apart from a momentary inspection I left everything else there for later.
An old friend kindly came over and gave up his day to help me work on the bike. Without him, the amount of work that actually got done wouldn’t have been covered off in a month of Sundays.
Between the two of us we loosened the fork caps and then got the forks off (or should that be out?) This wasn’t as easy as it might seem as the top one of the two bottom yoke (triple clamp) pinch bolts on each side had pretty solidly stuck in place. I thought it odd that the top one had seized up on both sides until I looked into the bores with a torch and realised that on both sides the bottom is open & the top closed at the back. Seems a mighty odd design to me. They’d been soaked with PlusGas and GT85 for the last week in an attempt to ease them. After deploying an impact driver, and a bit of a tighten to help break the stiction, all the bolts came out. Both issued some mightily worrying creaks and groans as they started to move, which isn’t good for the nerves, I can tell you.
Next job was to get the old oil out and replace it. What came out was remarkably clean but rather thin. By the look of the old oil, the dreaded previous owner (DPO) must have had it changed fairly recently - which doesn’t actually correspond that well with the seized bolts. They gave the impression of having been in for a long time. My mate suggested that this means the last fork oil change might have been in situ - draining through the retainer bolt at the bottom, then replacement through the fork cap. A cowboy way to do the job, in my opinion, so more than likely that’s the way it was done if the rest of the bike is anything to go by. Mind you, saying that, if I need to change the new (15W) fork oil for something thinner, that’s what I might have to do. Maybe. Not a palatable thought though.
There was a snapped off screw in the right fork leg. It is for retaining the mudguard and had seized into place, probably a very, very long time ago. We spent some time mucking about trying to drill the steel screw out with no luck. This wasted probably a whole hour and really just made a mess of things. Over the road lives another friend, an old-fashioned engineer with skills I can’t begin to dream of and a workshop to match. He’d been out gliding and when he came home I took the fork leg over to him to beg help. He has a mill and after a bit of thinking he clamped the fork leg in place, drilled out the seized screw & tapped the new hole. Can’t ask for more, really, and so very helpful - after all the forks couldn’t really go back on without that issue resolved. Another thousand thanks I owe to a friend.
Next the dreaded steering head bearings. With no load on, they actually felt fine. We then wasted a couple of hours cleaning up & re-greasing the (probably original) ball bearings and refitting them. After much mucking around we realised that there was wear on the bottom of the lower set and so the most horrible of jobs had to begin.
We both hate changing steering head bearings. It’s a difficult job at the best of times - and I don’t just mean the huge level of dismantling required to get the bike ready to do the job. The old ones are always bl00dy awful to get off, the new ones far from easy to get on again. The top outer race was easy to get out with a long drift but it took a lot of work with a Dremel cutting disk to get the lower inner race off. The replacement set were roller bearings from Pyramid Parts. I’ve used their bearings before and found them good. The inner races and the yokes spent over an hour in the freezer while we looked further at the alternator belt.
Turning briefly to this area, a lot of belt debris - thick, grey, dry dust - was found on the inside of the housing. That will be cleaned that off, as will the muck on the insider of the cover. The belt itself looks to be in good order and fairly new. Using the 90o turn method, I’d say it is very slightly looser than might be optimum but there’s no squealing from it when the bike is running and no lack of voltage from the alternator. It’s tempting to leave well alone, especially once I realised the adjuster is an awkward screw up near the headstock and somehow facing a frame bar. Very annoyingly tricky - especially as the service manual just seems to assume you know how to get in there and do it. So for the time being, I decided it was more important to get back to the forks. I’ll get on with the alternator belt, whatever I decide to do, one evening soon. I need to get some new bolts to replace the longer cover retaining ones anyhow.
Out of the freezer came the top outer race. Using the old outer race and a large socket, that was fairly quickly drifted into place. The yokes came out next while my mate used a hot air gun to warm the outer race - not too much, just a bit. It dropped remarkably easily into place on the bottom of the stem, snuggled up nicely to the seal we had remembered to slip on first. A thorough greasing for the needle bearings with the supplied sachet of goo and then it was time to fit the things.
This went reasonably easily until it came time to tighten up the two retaining rings at the top. The service manual appears to suggest, in its horribly translated English, that the lower ring needed to be on at 40Nm. I have no way to measure this and anyhow it seems to be an awful lot. In the end it got done up tight, but not too tight, the locking washer next then the upper ring. It didn’t get the 90o turn the book said as that made everything too tight when rotating the steering head. It got 45o or so then the locking tabs bent into place.
The time had arrived for the forks to go back in. Having cleaned up the threads on the yokes and using new bolts for the upper and lower yokes, with a little bit of aluminium grease, it was easier to get the forks back in than I’d expected. It was still annoyingly difficult to get the things “just so”. The thick rubber anti-vibration pad between half-handlebar and yoke top repeatedly got in the way. It might have been an idea to get new ones in but I hadn’t thought of it and it’s not like I could pop round the corner to a dealers to pick them up. After thinking all was done, my mate noticed that the right fork wasn’t in quite as far as it should be. Curses! A quick loosening, wiggling and tightening up again resolved that.
The fork caps are not yet tightened up and I need to remember to do that soon - if I can work out what the torque value should be from the mangled descriptions in the manual. Anyone happen to know?
Last job on the steering head bearings was to whack the 100Nm onto the retainer cap/bolt (no idea what the proper name is). With that done and the forks in place, the wheel went in quickly enough, the callipers went loosely into place and the time had come to get the bike off its stand to bounce the suspension a bit. The steering head bearings felt great, the new 15w fully synthetic fork oil made the front end much firmer (in a good way) than the old, thinner oil, and nothing fell off the bike. I considered that a success and so the bike went onto the stand again. The front wheel got properly torqued into place and the day’s work pretty much completed. 9pm!
Rusty pulley - an eagle-eyed friend looked at the picture of my Norge’s alternator belt and noticed that the inner surfaces of the pulley aren’t smooth and shiny as they would be were they under load:
I’ll change the belt, but could there be any other reason than a worn belt for this to occur?
I’ll change the belt, but could there be any other reason than a worn belt for this to occur?
You bike has been neglected it what appears to be a corrosive environment. A bit of a chicken egg thing as to which came first, belt wear or rust. I would smooth or replace that pulley when you install a new belt. Also check the condition of the alternator pulley.
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Neglected? At some point, neglect becomes abuse. Near shameful in this case. That said, not everyone who can afford to buy a motorcycle can afford a garage.
Whenever I read of the rusty travails of the OP's Norge, however, I am reminded of this Top Gear show:
FWIW, we have a '93 Toyota pickup with 227K miles.
That the OP was able to survive his recent jaunt to Europe is admirable, and what he is doing to bring his Norge back from near-death is inspiring.
Kathi and I are riding our Norge to the South'n Spine Raid at Tellico Plains, Tennessee, this weekend. IMO, riding that sweet beast two-up on the Cherohala -- aside from the two days of delightful back roads getting there and back -- is near sublime moto-joy.
Bill
Whenever I read of the rusty travails of the OP's Norge, however, I am reminded of this Top Gear show:
FWIW, we have a '93 Toyota pickup with 227K miles.
That the OP was able to survive his recent jaunt to Europe is admirable, and what he is doing to bring his Norge back from near-death is inspiring.
Kathi and I are riding our Norge to the South'n Spine Raid at Tellico Plains, Tennessee, this weekend. IMO, riding that sweet beast two-up on the Cherohala -- aside from the two days of delightful back roads getting there and back -- is near sublime moto-joy.
Bill
Oh yes, very much so. I imagine it has seen all year use in all weathers and in the UK that means 3 months of salted roads every year.
Given the cost of the replacement pulley in the UK (equivalent of $80 + postage, currently back order only) I think polishing is the way forward. You're right, the alternator pulley also needs checking and probably the same treatment.
I wonder if the service manual gives the right torque setting for those pulleys (if the alternator one comes off)... if I can decode the Itali-english
This evening I did a spot of cleaning up - the inside of the alternator belt cover had a thick layer of belt dust. I then had a look at slackening off the belt to replace it. As you have said, doing so will allow me to be assured that there’s a good belt on there and also permit me to clean up all the muck round the housing and generally front of engine.
In order to slacken the belt I had to loosen the two alternator mounting bolts, the adjuster locknut and the adjuster itself. All got a dose of PlusGas but the last two needed a bit of warmth from the hot air gun before they would move. The belt was fair wedged into the lower pulley and quite hard to get off even once there was no tension on it. I will have to take the pulleys off to clean them up too, just to make sure that the belt doesn’t get damaged by rust etc.
There’s a fair layer of black filth on the rear side of the belt housing - easily seen on the picture in an earlier post - and that will have to go too. This bike is going to be considerably lighter by the time I’ve finished with it, just from all the muck that’s coming off...
In order to slacken the belt I had to loosen the two alternator mounting bolts, the adjuster locknut and the adjuster itself. All got a dose of PlusGas but the last two needed a bit of warmth from the hot air gun before they would move. The belt was fair wedged into the lower pulley and quite hard to get off even once there was no tension on it. I will have to take the pulleys off to clean them up too, just to make sure that the belt doesn’t get damaged by rust etc.
There’s a fair layer of black filth on the rear side of the belt housing - easily seen on the picture in an earlier post - and that will have to go too. This bike is going to be considerably lighter by the time I’ve finished with it, just from all the muck that’s coming off...
Looking back I think it must have been rewarding me for previous care and attention because the exhaust broke less than 50 miles later!
Aww, shucks...
I hope you have a most excellent weekend
Brian UK
GT Reference
Looking at all the pictures you have published, I suspect that bike has been subject to more than the usual salt on the roads in winter. It could well have also been stored outside near the sea front somewhere. I've never seen one that bad.
I think the alternator pulley is alloy so you may not have rust there. The other one should be fine once the rust is polished off.
I think the alternator pulley is alloy so you may not have rust there. The other one should be fine once the rust is polished off.
I wondered that but the ownership data I have (incomplete, of course) shows inland in the Midlands. I wonder if it has had a period as a courier's hack. 60k is a lot of miles, after all.
If I had the cash I would strip it and do a lot more work but that's simply not sensible use of my money, especially if there are any major economic shocks coming.
I did have a squint at it yesterday and thought it looked better - that would explain why.
Yeah, time to get the Dremel into action, I think. And to take the pulley off the bike. I shall start hunting for torque settings in the Itali-English in the service manual
Do you think there's any special positioning for the bottom pulley or does it just go back on & get tightened up?
Brian UK
GT Reference
I'd use a brass rotary brush in a dremel or just in a drill. Brass won't eat into the pulley material, steel wire will.
You could also use phosphoric acid which will dissolve the rust and leave a rust proof coating.
You could also use phosphoric acid which will dissolve the rust and leave a rust proof coating.
Yeah, that was the plan.
I have a bottle of Fertan rust treatment - I guess I could use that. I would be concerned that it left the right surface for the belt to run in, but I guess it cannot be worse than what’s there now.
Brian UK
GT Reference
With phosphoric acid, it's normal to wash it off afterwards, then polish the surface.
Does anyone happen to know the torque setting for the nut that holds the lower alternator belt pulley onto the crank end? I am having no luck at all trying to decrypt the Italian English in the service manual 
It’s okay, I’ve got it - 80Nm & Loctite 243
It’s okay, I’ve got it - 80Nm & Loctite 243
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I don’t think this is an original oil cooler. I mean , I’m not sure, but I think the label is a bit of a clue:
And these fittings don’t look original either:
Which might be to my advantage. I’m going to take the lower fitting out of one side of the sump & take the whole thing to a local boat hydraulics place and see if the can make up some hoses etc. for me that fit both ends...
And these fittings don’t look original either:
Which might be to my advantage. I’m going to take the lower fitting out of one side of the sump & take the whole thing to a local boat hydraulics place and see if the can make up some hoses etc. for me that fit both ends...
Brian UK
GT Reference
The original one probably rotted away. But you will probably find this cooler is the same unit.