V100 Tech Talk

[Jan Cermak]

Hi, I remember that I saw somewhere that someone asked about this connector (see pictures). He mentioned that he had this connector disconnected. So do I. So my question is (this is S model) whether all of you with S model (maybe standard too) have this connector disconnected or not. And the second question is for what purpose is this connector there? The bike did 6700 kms without any problem so I am just curious about purpose of this connector and why it is not connected.
Thanks.

 

[Jan Cermak]

Update: I received info from my dealer, that this connector is not connected as standard. I just want to know for what purpose is it there.

 

[lemans850i]

I think the answer was heated grips!?

 

[Jan Cermak]

I think the answer was heated grips!?

Heated grips are standard on S model, but I think I figured it out.

We know from the manual, that there will be blind spot monitoring system with yellow alerts on the dashboard and corresponding mirror. And now I realized that the conector is the same but opposite sides to prevent connection of wrong mirror to wrong cable. So in my opinion these connectors are prepared for connection to the mirrors. ;-)

 

[viewpoint]

Shopping screen protectors for the TFT display. Does anyone know which Aprilia (or other ??) models share precisely the same size display as the V100? There seem to be economical choices in the market for a number of Aprilia options that *appear* to match the V100.

EBay, don’t bother using water as per instructions ️it left bubbles
Fitted second one straight on and used a credit card to smooth out ….perfect
Dave …. Best colour Red and gold

 

[blacki999]

And just because we’re in that area lol
I finally found the information again:
a little bit downstream the V 100 has the driveshaft angled 6°… I assume just to get the bigger tire in it without building the transmission wider…

I’m very interested in the internal layout of the V100 Mandello engine. I found a Hong Kong website with info I’ve seen nowhere else; ibike.hk/ibike-reviews/v100/22009/
One diagram shows the clutch/gearbox layout. The clutch is connected directly to the crankshaft through a flexible coupling and drives the gearbox mainshaft through a primary gear reduction 31/48. The countershaft drives the cardan shaft directly. The final drive reduction is 12/38. The clutch, being on the engine side of the primary reduction, handles less torque and can be smaller and lighter. With no flywheel, this minimises the torque reaction when the engine is blipped. The alternator drive has little inertia to counteract the torque reaction. It’s a short shaft with a gear drive from the crankshaft, a larger gear (probably with a sprag clutch) driven by the starter motor, and a pulley for the alternator belt.
The cardan shaft, being on the left, must rotate clockwise (as seen by the rider). With just two direction reversals, the engine also rotates clockwise, as demonstrated by the torque reaction to the left. With this layout, to have the driveshaft traditionally on the right would mean running the engine CCW.
Why not?
Moto Guzzi, like BMW, must want the engine running CW. BMW, in the water-cooled R1200 twins, in 2013 introduced a gear driven clutch, inserting an extra direction reversal in the drive train. They moved the shaft drive from right to left to maintain CW crankshaft rotation.
I haven’t yet figured out how the water pump and oil pump are driven. It’s disappointing that to replace the water pump oil seal you must separate the gearbox from the engine. Very expensive.
Why didn’t MG simply drive the pump from the alternator belt?

 

[blacki999]

I’ve read reviews of the V100 Mandello and watched many videos. There’s a lot of mention about the loud clunk going into first gear. I think I’d get very tired of that very quickly.
Has anyone had success in reducing it with some particular type of engine oil? Does it improve after a few thousand km?
Alternatively, is there any advantage holding in the clutch for a couple of seconds before engaging first gear, or blipping the engine with the clutch disengaged before engaging first, to allow the gearbox mainshaft to break free of the crankshaft rotation and stop without protest?
After blipping, does the engine momentarily drop below normal idle speed, giving you a brief chance to engage first with less impact?
1400 rpm does seem like a fast idle, but an uneven firing big twin with high compression, a light clutch and no flywheel probably needs it. Personally, I think more rotating mass, a lower idle speed, and less clunk might be preferable, albeit with more torque reaction. I guess MG wants minimal torque reaction while the engine spins rapidly to the stratospheric 9500rpm redline?

 

[john zibell]

Clunk into first gear is common on several European brands. Have you ever been near a BMW airhead? If a clunk bothers you, then this bike isn't for you.

 

[blacki999]

In the V100 Mandello drive shaft there is a single universal joint. This is quite common in motorcycle shaft drives (like small block Guzzis) but it does introduce some shaft acceration/deceleration twice per revolution while the universal is driving through an angle (almost always). Since this design is ancient it must work OK. Does it cause increased stress or wear in the drive components? Is a cush needed somewhere in the drive to buffer the shaft speed pulsations?
In cars, and the BMW Paralever and the MG CARC, a second universal joint driving through the same angle in phase with the first joint cancels the shaft speed pulsation, delivering smooth rotation to the final drive pinion.
In 1978 I owned a Yamaha XS750D shaft drive triple. Hopeless bike. It didn’t go, handle or stop. I had to replace its Morse Hyvo primary chain twice in 25000km, and its steering head bearings too. But it did have a German Getrag gearbox and, interestingly, a single CV joint in the shaft drive. I should think a CV would thrive in this low-torque, low drive angle environment, compared with directly driving a front car wheel. And no shaft speed pulsations.

 

[blacki999]

Clunk into first gear is common on several European brands. Have you ever been near a BMW airhead? If a clunk bothers you, then this bike isn't for you.

I ride a BMW hexhead, it’s OK. But so many reviewers complain about the Mandello clunk, I think it’s an issue to consider.

 

[Tebax]

My V100 is the first Guzzi I’ve ridden, and also the first V twin.
I’ve had several inline fours, two triples, and one small parallel twin.
The clunk of the V100 isn’t bothering me a bit to be honest.
Yes it is there, but not anything too major.
I would say that the clunk has been less noticeable with miles.
When the bike was brand new the clunk sometimes was a little bit too significant, agreed, but it has smoothed out.

There are clunks even on some inline fours, keep in mind, which can be surprising at times.
Not as agricultural as on the V100, but still quite noticeable.

So if other V100 owners have slightly different experience of their bike than me I can’t tell for sure.
But from what I read most owners seem to have about the same experience:
The clunk was at occasions annoying when new, but has been better with miles, and is nowadays nothing one think of in daily riding.

 

[JPC56]

As others have said it's the high idle speed coupled with an engine speed clutch that causes the clunk. The drive shaft has an internal rubber sleeve to cope with speed variation during rotation.

 

[Navy Boy]

I ride a BMW hexhead, it’s OK. But so many reviewers complain about the Mandello clunk, I think it’s an issue to consider.

When I test rode a V100 Mandello a few months back the gearbox was, without doubt, my least favourite thing about the whole riding experience. I too noticed the clunk going into 1st gear and the change up to 2nd gear wasn't terribly smooth either.

You are right to be curious about this - Having said the above I have ordered myself a new V100 Mandello S which should be in my possession next weekend all being well. I am expecting the box to improve with time and miles and it isn't something that I'm going to be too upset about. Interestingly the gearbox on my V7 850 is noticeably less clunky and is probably the best Guzzi gearbox I've ever used.

 

[Navy Boy]

I’ve read reviews of the V100 Mandello and watched many videos. There’s a lot of mention about the loud clunk going into first gear. I think I’d get very tired of that very quickly.
Has anyone had success in reducing it with some particular type of engine oil? Does it improve after a few thousand km?
Alternatively, is there any advantage holding in the clutch for a couple of seconds before engaging first gear, or blipping the engine with the clutch disengaged before engaging first, to allow the gearbox mainshaft to break free of the crankshaft rotation and stop without protest?
After blipping, does the engine momentarily drop below normal idle speed, giving you a brief chance to engage first with less impact?
1400 rpm does seem like a fast idle, but an uneven firing big twin with high compression, a light clutch and no flywheel probably needs it. Personally, I think more rotating mass, a lower idle speed, and less clunk might be preferable, albeit with more torque reaction. I guess MG wants minimal torque reaction while the engine spins rapidly to the stratospheric 9500rpm redline?

Like you I'm curious as to whether different oils can have an effect on this or not. Without wishing to engage in a 'Which oil should use/' type of debate I am interested to hear what others' experiences in this area have been.

 

[MG_Rider]

Transmission loud clunk explanation from a retired gear train designer (me).

There is a concept in gear train design called reflected inertia (or torque): that being that changes in load seen across a gear set are seen at the square of the gear ratio. For our purposes here that is the primary ratio of the (driver) crank speed clutch assembly to the first transmission gear shaft. That ratio is 1.548. Squared its 2,40.

That means load or inertia changes from the tranny gear shaft are seen X 2.4 at the clutch assembly. Shifting to 1st or 2nd I would consider as transient versions of change. That is part of the "clunk." Conventional layout with wet clutch downstream of the primary gear reduction doesn't have this problem, but the clutch has to carry much more torque and is bigger assembly.

The other part is the natural drag of a wet clutch vs a dry clutch. I don't hear much complaining about dry clutch clunks vs. the V100 motor. The drag is from stiction between the driver and driven plates, they get almost glued together sitting all week in the garage, it takes a bunch of energy to break them free, hence the clunk.

Another detail is these modern wet clutches have a bellville spring in the clutch pack that is supposed to broaden the clutch engagement zone. The flipside is these also create some drag, especially as normal wear occurs along the edge of the bellville spring against the driven plate. I have removed these springs from a couple of bikes to reduce clutch drag. The downside is narrowing of clutch engagement when cold. Problem goes away when warm.

Regarding oil weight vs clunk: I wouldn't change weight of oil for a wet sump design. Going thinner only make sense to me if you ride in the NW territories of Canada.

Anyway, hope this too long post helps clarify the clunk more than introducing controversy. I'm keeping my V100S, love it!

 

[Racer242]

Transmission loud clunk explanation from a retired gear train designer (me).

There is a concept in gear train design called reflected inertia (or torque): that being that changes in load seen across a gear set are seen at the square of the gear ratio. For our purposes here that is the primary ratio of the (driver) crank speed clutch assembly to the first transmission gear shaft. That ratio is 1.548. Squared its 2,40.

That means load or inertia changes from the tranny gear shaft are seen X 2.4 at the clutch assembly. Shifting to 1st or 2nd I would consider as transient versions of change. That is part of the "clunk." Conventional layout with wet clutch downstream of the primary gear reduction doesn't have this problem, but the clutch has to carry much more torque and is bigger assembly.

The other part is the natural drag of a wet clutch vs a dry clutch. I don't hear much complaining about dry clutch clunks vs. the V100 motor. The drag is from stiction between the driver and driven plates, they get almost glued together sitting all week in the garage, it takes a bunch of energy to break them free, hence the clunk.

Another detail is these modern wet clutches have a bellville spring in the clutch pack that is supposed to broaden the clutch engagement zone. The flipside is these also create some drag, especially as normal wear occurs along the edge of the bellville spring against the driven plate. I have removed these springs from a couple of bikes to reduce clutch drag. The downside is narrowing of clutch engagement when cold. Problem goes away when warm.

Regarding oil weight vs clunk: I wouldn't change weight of oil for a wet sump design. Going thinner only make sense to me if you ride in the NW territories of Canada.

Anyway, hope this too long post helps clarify the clunk more than introducing controversy. I'm keeping my V100S, love it!

Until my Stelvio went in for some warranty work last week (oil leak at head gasket?), I had been riding in 40 degree temps. I can say that the cold gear box shifts much, much more smoothly and quietly. After 15 or so miles and everything getting up to temp, it's back to the same ole clunk.

I have a Ducati 996 with the Testastrata engine. This same engine was used in a number of Ducati bikes. Sometimes with a Bellville spring in the pack and sometimes without. The bikes with the Bellville spring were more of the touring nature and the claimed reason for the spring was that it improved the engagement zone. I have never done a side by side comparison. In any case, with the V100, I find the engagement zone very frustrating. 95% of the lever travel results in 5% engagement, the last 5% of travel gets you the remaining 95% engagement. 50 years of riding and if I come to a stop on a steep grade with the Stelvio, I rarely pull away smoothly. I either over-rev the engine, playing out more and more clutch, my feet trying to arrest my backward downhill drift, my level of fear and embarrassment rising and then, finally that last 3/16" of release and we start to move. The other case is keeping some fingers on the front brake or a foot on the rear brake until fully convinced that the clutch is taking up the load at which point the bike is jacking up on the swing arm. That spring is the bane of moderately stop and go riding. Without it, how much smaller would the engagement zone really be?

Could there be another reason for the Bellville spring, could it aid in shifting when the quick shifter is utilized? I appreciate your explanation of gear box loading. Could the clunk also be caused by there being a substantial amount of back cutting in the engagement dogs? Tap the lever or crunch it with your heel, you are getting the same clunk every time. It's as if the gears are being sucked together.

 

[MG_Rider]

IMHO the clunk comes as the dog's for 1st/2nd hit the slots in the gear, the energy coming from the sorta disengaged clutch x 2.4 primary ratio. Big change in speed of the parts involved coming from neutral for this clutch/tranny architecture.

Interesting on the 40F effect. May be the drag at the tranny with cold oil helps dampen engagement.

 

[South Westerly]

Yes it clunks a bit but so too did my Ducati Multistrada. It really doesn't bother me at all and to be honest I don't even notice it. The bike is really nice to ride so I just enjoy it which is why I bought it.

 

[MotoGuzziFan]

V100 Cutaway Engine in the Moto Guzzi Museum last month.