V7 Charging issues / Dead battery -- PLEASE READ

[dabrucru]

Hi again , my local dealer is still of the opinion that there is nothing wrong with the way the vr is performing. He said that if guzzi saw that there is something wrong they would have made a recall. I ordered the mosfet unit , should be here in the next weeks. The thing is that here in malta there are no more than 6 v7 bikes and i m pretty sure none of them knows about this problem. But i think i made the right decision finally. Ok my bike is quite new with just 5200kms and it performs great but knowing that their is something wrong i wont enjoy it to the full and who knows when , where or what the fault would be... Anyway thanks for all your imput, patience and advices. Will post an update as the new vr is installed....drive safe..

Ciao

David
Malta

 

[francod123]

Hi again , my local dealer is still of the opinion that there is nothing wrong with the way the vr is performing. He said that if guzzi saw that there is something wrong they would have made a recall.

Dude, you know what I've learned about dealers in my experience so far? Most of them don't give a fuck, and they simply tell you what you want to hear. I'm not saying he is necessarily wrong in his assessment, but saying that MG "would have made a recall" if there was a serious problem...thanks buddy, I can sleep at night now knowing you've got it all figured out. The MOSFET units seem to be a good insurance, whether or not our VRs are performing within the specified range according to the literature, because it seems that majority are at the top end of that range, if not over.

 

[Kev M]

I suspect that for some reason (good price on units) MG made a call to go with RRs that run a little higher voltage than most other manufacturers.

Maybe they also figured that most would use these bikes in short distance urban environments where a rapid charge rate was an advantage and risk of damage to the battery was minimal.

Certainly if mine has been charging at 15.4V since new the battery has survived 3+ years and 10.5k miles so far (though it is showing early signs of damage).

So one could argue the system is working more or less "as designed" but that the design is questionable.

And as I keep repeating, even MG only spec'd 15.0 volts as the high range of the charging system per the service manual (unless the manual is both poorly written and translated, but even then 15 is on the high side according to the industry).

So yeah, change it out either way.

 

[elkgrichard]

Maybe the battery in these bikes can take that higher charging voltage? I'm wondering if this is an actual design, because why and how could all of these things charge high like this and out of spec? Maybe this is spec?

 

[dabrucru]

Maybe the battery in these bikes can take that higher charging voltage? I'm wondering if this is an actual design, because why and how could all of these things charge high like this and out of spec? Maybe this is spec?

You checked yours? I m finding it hard to change an oem thing from my bike just after 5000kms...i love to keep everything original on it... anyway the new vr is on the way so...

 

[Kev M]

As researched and reported earlier in this thread the OEM battery is a Yuasa AGM.

AGM batteries respond well to a higher voltage charge when they are discharged (better than a standard wet lead/acid).

But that means 14.8 rather than 14.4.

Once the battery is charged it must do something else with the excess charge. A more sophisticated charging system would reduce the charge at that point, but since this rudimentary system doesn't appear to do that continues charging at the same level will produce heat in the battery. The higher the charge, the greater the amount of heat and potential damage.

Do this repeatedly and/or long enough and you'll kill the battery.

As I noted much earlier in this thread the older and less used battery in our 11 Ducati 696 appears to be in much better shape than the younger and probably better maintained battery in our 13 V7.

And as I've said, even if the MG spec of 15.0V max appears to be questionable when compared with the battery manufacturer's recommendations, most 13-14 models appear to be testing ABOVE even that.

Bottom line, I don't think 15.1-15.5 is going to harm anything on the bike EXCEPT the battery whose life it will most certainly reduce. But why live with that risk if you don't have to?

 

[dabrucru]

As researched and reported earlier in this thread the OEM battery is a Yuasa AGM.

AGM batteries respond well to a higher voltage charge when they are discharged (better than a standard wet lead/acid).

But that means 14.8 rather than 14.4.

Once the battery is charged it must do something else with the excess charge. A more sophisticated charging system would reduce the charge at that point, but since this rudimentary system doesn't appear to do that continues charging at the same level will produce heat in the battery. The higher the charge, the greater the amount of heat and potential damage.

Do this repeatedly and/or long enough and you'll kill the battery.

As I noted much earlier in this thread the older and less used battery in our 11 Ducati 696 appears to be in much better shape than the younger and probably better maintained battery in our 13 V7.

And as I've said, even if the MG spec of 15.0V max appears to be questionable when compared with the battery manufacturer's recommendations, most 13-14 models appear to be testing ABOVE even that.

Bottom line, I don't think 15.1-15.5 is going to harm anything on the bike EXCEPT the battery whose life it will most certainly reduce. But why live with that risk if you don't have to?

Totally agree

 

[GTM®]

Bottom line, I don't think 15.1-15.5 is going to harm anything on the bike EXCEPT the battery whose life it will most certainly reduce. But why live with that risk if you don't have to?

It will harm the cam sensor, and in the end the ECU, outside of the battery. Hence the first post of the thread.

Up to each owner to choose. Your bike and money. Pay a little now, or a lot later.

 

[Kev M]

It will harm the cam sensor, and in the end the ECU, outside of the battery. Hence the first post of the thread.

Up to each owner to choose. Your bike and money. Pay a little now, or a lot later.

No Todd. I don't see evidence of that in your posts.

Correct me if I'm wrong on the facts but the only thing I see you've said is that you have one or more cases where the RR was severely malfunctioning spiking voltages to 16-17V at speed and THOSE BIKES suffered damage to the CAM sensor and ECU. I don't see where you've claimed finding one testing at 15.1 or less where the damage has occurred.

Per my post a few times above, many of those including the several I've repaired because of "running issues" idled at 15.5v, and went up into the high 16~17's at 3k RPM. All those I've had here required battery replacement earlier then expected, and most all also required replacement of the cam sensor to throttle correctly (all showed a cam sensor & ECU error with diagnostics). The last one I had that was "addressed" by a local dealer ended up having to replace the battery, voltage regulator, cam sensor (twice) and the ECU/TB for it to run correctly.

In contrast it seems clear now from the number if bikes testing in the low 15V range without damaged ECUs/CAM sensors, plus the OEM specs, plus the OEM replacement RR from EuroElectrics which is noted to be set to 15.1 V that for whatever reason MG decided to run this charging system at about 15 volts.

Hell I provided a link to the Yuasa website that clearly stated that for AGM batteries the charging system should be regulated to 14.0-14.8 volts. While that 14.8 is 0.2-0.3 less than what MG seems to have spec'd it's still 0.4 more than what you seem to think is the threshold.

Now I agree with your conclusion that 14.something is probably a good idea on the long run (at least for the life of the battery).

But I've seen no evidence that if running at OEM specs anything else will necessarily fail.

If I'm missing something please set me straight.

 

[Wisconsin v7 Racer]

I'm my opinion why are people second guessing what Todd is recommending to do. With all that he has put into helping all of us with our bikes. With his products and knowledge he probably takes it as a slap in the face when people question him on anything. GUZZI should get in contact with someone like Todd that has a passion for these bikes and knows how they should be operating. There's a lot of other simpler stuff then this that we have to fix on our bikes thar guzzi has messed up and looks the other way. Thanks Todd for helping us with everything you do. I'll be testing mine this week and will not think twice about replacing the part if it tests high.

 

[Kev M]

I'm my opinion why are people second guessing what Todd is recommending to do.

<snip>

With his products and knowledge he probably takes it as a slap in the face when people question him on anything

<snip>

I'll be testing mine this week and will not think twice about replacing the part if it tests high.

Maybe because when examining multiple other sources it doesn't appear to be a black and white issue.

As a long time happy customer of Todd who appreciates his passion supported business I'd hope he wouldn't take the quest for knowledge as a slap in the face anymore than I'd expect him (or anyone here) to be perfect and have all the answers.

So the question is, when you test this week (at idle and 3-5k rpm) what will you consider high:

> 14.4 (Todd & some older battery source info)
> 14.8 (Yuasa AGM info 2014)
> 15.0 (MG Stone/Special/Racer service manual)
> 15.1 (OEM replacement RR setting as per Euromotoelectrics)

Currently I'm leaning towards Yuasa's info for my own target, but I suspect other than shortened battery life there's no reason not to believe MG or perhaps even the RR manufacturer.

 

[dabrucru]

My question is has anyone had the ecu or cam sensor or both got damaged by this issue? Because i think people are happy that they change the battery every 3 or 4 years...for some its just a normal routine. I would really like to hear from these people, just for knowledge. I read with great interest todd's posts and i trust everything he says, so i m still changing my vr.

 

[elkgrichard]

Starter and crank position sensor went out on my bike last year and now the VR is charging high.

My bike is still in the shop waiting for the new VR, been almost 3 weeks.

 

[Kev M]

Starter and crank position sensor went out on my bike last year and now the VR is charging high.

My bike is still in the shop waiting for the new VR, been almost 3 weeks.

I don't recall you ever telling us what voltage your VR was putting out, did you test it yourself and/or did the shop tell you?

 

[elkgrichard]

Tested it myself. At idle it was like 15.8 and close 16. 6 or so something at 3,000 rpm's. Reason I tested, because I blew out a taillight bulb and headlight bulb at the same time. I've never had that happen before and after having lost the starter and the CPS, I knew something was going on with the electrical system that was not adding up. Bike runs great otherwise.

The shop verified my results.

That being said they acted like they didn't know if this was normal or not, then they called me the next day and decided to replace the VR.

Don't know for sure if the CPS and starter going out related to this or not but It looks suspicious.

My concern would be the entire wire harness and all electrical on the bike. With the warranty ending in June I probably need some documentation to cover this bike long term electrical systems.

This bike is very close to becoming a Lemon Law candidate. The shop manager himself asked me if I plan on using the lemon law. He said if I wanted to go that route they would offer me another bike, since this back and forth with the shop is getting ridiculous.

The shop is more at the end of the rope with this bike then me.

 

[francod123]

the tank simply has to be pulled back to access the harness plugs. No need to fully remove the tank, simply slide it back enough to gain access access to the plugs. That's how mine was...assuming everyone's will be in a similar spot.

 

[elkgrichard]

Shop called me today and they have found wire harness damage on my bike. They called the factory and they (factory) want pictures and documentation along with all the maintenance records from that shop on my bike, anything that was electrical related on warranty.

As stated before I had the starter and CPS go out last year along with bulbs blowing out.

They called me and told me they can't release the bike to me for safety reasons. So everything is in some type of limbo. I'm without a bike that's caught up In some type of maintenance hold until the factory figure out what to do about this bike. I guess the concern is the brake light burning out and I get hit from behind or something. So the factory is somehow paranoid about my bike for some reason.

 

[elkgrichard]

I would not be changing things without consulting a factory rep.

 

[Vagrant]

where is the damage to the harness? I want to check mine for it. at 17.8 volts for 2700 miles I might have the same problem and never know it until it's too late.

 

[elkgrichard]

I don't know, just talk to them over the phone. They need to get this thing figured out because the riding season is getting close and I'm missing the hell out of that bike. I don't want another bike, I want them to fix this bike and make it right. Not only that the hassle with all of the extra stuff I put on that bike that would need to come off and transferred to another bike. I just put a new tire on the back for crying out loud.

Not only that the Lemon Law have some type of mileage deduction, over 16,000 miles on this bike. Then I don't know what happens with taxes, DMV, set up, freight and all that BS along with whatever other California fees apply. Some type of disposal fee on the other bike or something crazy like that. who knows. The bleeding never ends in this state.